Replies

“Sounds to me that Peter’s being given both, authority
in the Kingdom, and authority in the Church on Earth,
such that his authority in the Church on earth (bind
on Earth), shall extend to heaven (bound in heaven).”

... It appears your concerns stem from not distinguishing
between the Church and the Kingdom of Heaven. Though it
may “sound to you”, that is quite different that what it
says.

Doctrine is built on what is, not what something sounds
like. Otherwise, anything can become doctrine, as indeed it
has over the centuries.

Again, I am not attempting to tell you what to believe. In
the end, I am responsible for me, so my intent is to discuss
in response to your initial contact. What you are advocating,
without scriptural backing, but based on how things sound
to you, doesn’t cut it for me. While I am human, I am trying
to be intellectually honest and love God with my MIND as
He commands.

“And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven,
and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in
heaven.” Matt. 16:19

... You will look for the word “Church” in vain in Christ’s
word as recorded in Matthew. If you insert them, you are
adding to His words. If you bring your own “sounds like”
to the equation, you are involved in eisogesis.

... Nor does Christ say Peter would have authority in the
Church. It says he will have some kind of authority in
the Kingdom of Heaven to forbid or permit.

... You have never addressed the larger issue:

... If continuing Apostolic authority were so centrally important
to the Church, then why isn’t the following commanded or
recorded in Scripture:

1. The command to choose replacements for the Apostles
as they die or sin (like Judas).
2. The qualifications on who to choose.
3. The method of how to choose and Apostle.

Even deacons and elders have criteria for choosing.
But not Apostles???

Even deacons and elders are named as ongoing offices
of the Church. But not Apostles?

... You are making a truth claim that Apostolic authority
was given to Peter and continues to this day (if I understand
what you are claiming).

So far, you have given me a passage about Christ giving
Peter sub-authority in the Kingdom of Heaven. You have
also reverenced a portion of Isaiah that is similar because
it uses the word key. Somehow Peter got more than one
because he gets keys. It is indeed an interesting parallel,
but is nothing more than that.

... I would add that you also did not respond to the simple fact
that every Apostle remains alive today in Heaven - all 13.

... not one of them was replaced.

For all those reasons, I cannot in good faith and using my
mind to love God, draw a doctrine of Apostolic authority.

Not sure what else I can tell you in answer to the original
reason you posted to me.

If you have any direct scriptural support for Apostolic
authority
that continues and is passed on, please share it. Also,
if you have any examples from the first 100 years after
the death of Christ, I’d like to see them. Beyond that,
it seems to be simply an accretion of some churches.

All the best,
ampu

“I build doctrine on specific stated truths.”

Yet you say:

“Peter was given authority in the Kingdom, not in the Church on earth.”

Wow. Ok. This is despite the fact that Christ explicitly tells Peter, ‘Whatsoever you bind on Earth, shall be bound on Heaven?’

Sounds to me that Peter’s being given both, authority in the Kingdom, and authority in the Church on Earth, such that his authority in the Church on earth (bind on Earth), shall extend to heaven (bound in heaven).

Forgiving sins and binding and loosing is not limited to Peter or the apostles as your Church claims. He told you, I, and every believer the same thing when He taught us the Lords Prayer.

Father forgive/loose our sins as we forgive/loose the sins committed against us.

If we do not forgive/loose the sins committed by a brother on earth when they ask, that sin is bound on earth as well as in heaven and God cannot forgive/loose our sins against Him.

He explains this in Mathew 18 15-35. The first example involves one brother asking another to forgive him and how to handle it if that brother doesn't. The only role the local church has in this is as a referee. They are not required to forgive anyone because they were not sinned against.

They second example is when Peter asks Jesus how many times he/Peter has to forgive a brother who sins against him/Peter. Jesus tells Peter seven times seventy and goes on to explain the concept of binding and loosing. You and I have to forgive our earthly brothers before we can be forgiven by our heavenly Father.

What you won't find here or anywhere else is where a man can forgive sins committed against God for God as the Catholic Church practices.

Only you and I can, and must, forgive sins committed against us by a brother. Only God can forgive our sins against Him.

Please read the verses and show me where I am wrong. Thanks BVB

Matthew 18:15-34 (New King James Version)

Dealing with a Sinning Brother

¹⁵ “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’^[a] ¹⁷ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
¹⁸ “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
¹⁹ “Again I say^[b] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. ²⁰ For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant

²¹ Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
²² Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. ²³ Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. ²⁴ And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. ²⁵ But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. ²⁶ The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ ²⁷ Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
²⁸ “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ ²⁹ So his fellow servant fell down at his feet^[c] and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’^[d] ³⁰ And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. ³¹ So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. ³² Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. ³³ Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ ³⁴ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.