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To: BenKenobi

Methinks you miss my point, good friend. I draw no inference that God’s choices on how to build his church are an expression of God’s needs per se, but in all these debates the one argument that irritates me the most is the man-centeredness of the notion that God somehow needs an intermediary class to shepherd his sheep. He is certainly well able to do that if he so chooses. But He is equally well able to put a Bible in every hand and the Holy Spirit in every heart of everyone that belongs to Him, and call that sufficient. The argument that chaos will break out if we do not impose strict, visible, institutional control is a doctrine that elevates man, not God. God can do just fine when things seem structurally chaotic to us.

For example, remember his word to Elijah, “I have reserved to myself 7000 men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Elijah panicked due to his lack of vision of the power of God to be the Master his own people, without the benefit of institutional supports. The Catholic argument, that doctrinal chaos is bad, is a valid concern, but God has already addressed it by means that do not correspond to the contorted path of Roman successionism or institutionalism, but rather rely on the supernatural work of God in guiding believing hearts everywhere through Scripture as illuminated by the Holy Spirit. He is our shepherd, and he is perfectly capable of shepherding us himself when the hirelings have all failed to one degree or another.

an unbroken succession of visible authority , and not just any authority, but an authority capable of overriding conscience and the ordinary exercise of God-given common sense.


124 posted on 12/30/2010 3:14:16 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer

“But He is equally well able to put a Bible in every hand and the Holy Spirit in every heart of everyone that belongs to Him, and call that sufficient.”

It’s right there in the Bible that for those who do not have the Law, will become a law in and of themselves. For he has already given us a bible in each of our hands, in the gift of our conscience.

The bible, such as it is, is a tool. It must reach out to the truth to which we are already aware. It must confirm that which we already know and have known, long before we encountered His Word.

He has chosen, to include us in his plan for salvation. Commanded that we must spread his word. Built his Church. The argument that Peter is just a man so he can’t be the boss of me, doesn’t really hold much significance to the fact that like it or not, he established his Church in Peter. Gave Peter his keys, and those keys have been passed on.

There are only several options we have. We are not meant to be divided. We all have the question to confront, “who is Christ’s church today?” I believe that it is the Catholic church, but there are many who would disagree.


128 posted on 12/30/2010 3:29:14 PM PST by BenKenobi (Rush speaks! I hear, I obey)
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To: Springfield Reformer
For example, remember his word to Elijah, “I have reserved to myself 7000 men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Elijah panicked due to his lack of vision of the power of God to be the Master his own people, without the benefit of institutional supports. The Catholic argument, that doctrinal chaos is bad, is a valid concern, but God has already addressed it by means that do not correspond to the contorted path of Roman successionism or institutionalism, but rather rely on the supernatural work of God in guiding believing hearts everywhere through Scripture as illuminated by the Holy Spirit. He is our shepherd, and he is perfectly capable of shepherding us himself when the hirelings have all failed to one degree or another.

Beautifully and succinctly said! Thank you.

201 posted on 12/30/2010 9:53:39 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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