Actual conversation mormon style..."Can you prove it's wrong to me? No? then shut up."
This thread has yanked a few mormony chains, LOL.
Mormon thin-skin showing multiple eruptions!
Must not have those "opposing interpretations"!
Posted on 12/26/2010 5:29:46 PM PST by Colofornian
If you really want answers, start by eliminating words like slither from your posts, next start using real names instead of diminutives (joey for Joseph, etc), last actually listen to the answers without prejudice. Short of those... continue to be bothered and ignorant, no one is going to try to teach a demagogue for long.
Well, first you said that you did temple work because there was nothing in the bible saying you couldn’t. Now you are saying there are scriptures that support it. But you don’t care to mention them.
Interesting.
And after I told you I was willing to die for you to practice your beliefs, you want me to (and I quote) “shut up”.
That doesn’t sound very, well, “christian”
By whom?
mormonic deception placemarker
You haven' t met our missionaries yet, LOL!
Green toenail placemarker
***I’m less than an hour away and I haven’t been yet. Shame on me - I need to just pick a Saturday and go.***
It is definitly worth the trip, and across the street is the Kiowa County museum, also worth the trip. I found the plat with my great-grandfather’s original homestead claim on it there!
Oh by the way, make shure it is pronounced..HobErt, not HobArt! the city administrator told me that!
***We have Tammy Faye and Jimmah Swaggert, and Robert Tilton, (now there was a Christian)all serving the world the example of Christianity! ***
It’s hard to believe two of these are back in business along with several other discrdited so-called “Christian” preachers!
But then they only appeal to a certain clientele. Any true Christian worth their salt should be able to see through them within 5 minutes of listening to them.
“The mormon jesus is a demonic impersonation”
We believe in the same Jesus who we read about in the New Testament.
Some people back then mistakenly said that Jesus had a demon but He was actually doing the work of God. People are making the same mistake these days when it comes to how they view Latter-day Saints.
***Did I mention they got a great choir, or should I not listen to the MTC either? Is it demon music brought from the depths of hell?***
Many cultic groups will find something with which they hope to “show” the world they are “sincere”.
Mormons have the Tabernacle choir, the followers of Mary Baker Eddy (who denies the blood of Christ for salvation) have the Christian Science Monitor newspaper.
And then there is Scientology with Tom Cruise and john Travolta....
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Thank you DelphiUser, I would love to see more polite comments. I like the Mormons. I feel only hate from those posters who condemn them. Hate is not something I think I should be feeling from Christians.
As far as plural wives are concerned, since Bishops were only to have one wife it stands to reason that some early Christians had more than one wife. I would feel sorry for anybody that had to have more than one wife. I'm crazy about my wife but I would never be a part of something that would make me have more than one.
As far as Mormon Temple work, while I don't know enough about it to speak very intelligently it seems to me they only mean to be helpful by doing it. Mormons say that Paul asked why they baptize for the dead so they may really have some little biblical reason for the practice.
As for being Christian like I said they worship Christ, to me that makes them Christian. I don't care what anyone here says, I have been to their meetings. They worship Christ. People who say otherwise are wrong or liars.
Some assume that Adam was given one wife, therefore we all should only have one wife.Polygamy is Icky.
While this seems simple, it's just not valid, consider Adam's children with this logic: All of Adam's children married siblings, so this is how it was meant to be...
One makes sense, one does not according to our culture, the Adam only had one wife while true is a projection of our cultures values onto him If we say that is the only valid form of marriage, the Sibling marriage would be an equally valid projection from a culture that practices sibling marriage, and a projection from a polygamous culture would say that God married Adam to all the available women.
Projecting your values is not a valid form of determining what the scriptures say, or what God means by them.
Throughout the Old testament there are people living in polygamous marriages, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses. We only find out about their polygamy when it impacts "the story", never to reprimand them, thus it's valid to assume since these "men of God" were never reprimanded by God or it would be in the record, thus we can conclude that polygamy was not an issue for God, and God does not change...
Some claim that Jesus forbid polygamy, here let me give the Scriptures they use:27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:I included the whole paragraph because since the Bible was originally written in paragraph form sometimes context is lost by just quoting a single scripture. Jesus comes out against Lusting and lasciviousness, he talks of removal of temptations, he then talks about Divorce, and how a divorced woman who remarries commits adultery.
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
This is a condemnation of the Serial polygamy (Multiple divorce and remarriage) that is commonly practiced today, but not a condemnation of the biblical polygamy where the marriage bonds stay intact, children keep their fathers, and the family unit instead of being destroyed is just expanded.
I have challenged theologians online many times and none can show me a scripture that forbids a man to have two, or more wives.
This Objection to polygamy is basically one of Culture, eating some food is a delicacy in one culture, is "Icky" in another (Snails for example). Such "programmed" responses are sometimes impossible to overcome. There are instances recorded in history where people who refused to be rude and excuse themselves to go to the bathroom have actually ruptured their bladder and died from it. The idea that polygamy might actually be acceptable to God engenders similar unreasoning and unreasonable reaction from some people, if you are one of those people, don't read any further, it will just raise your blood pressure.Polygamy Is or was Illegal
Polygamy was legal in most ancient cultures (Greek being an exception), Polygamy was made illegal at the Federal level of the United states by the Edmunds–Tucker Act in 1887, until then there was no federal level law, and only the laws of states must be considered. The Edmunds–Tucker Act was tied up for many years in the courts as the church tried to have it ruled unconstitutional. Illinois where the prophet Joseph lived granted Nauvoo a city charter that allowed it's governing body to decide if states laws applied there therefore Illinois Law cannot be used to determine if Polygamy was illegal in Nauvoo. Nauvoo had no laws against polygamy.Isn't Polygamy Adultery?
The American frontier has always had polygamy as part of it's history; The Indians had many Squaws (or wives) Mountain men often had Wives and Indian squaws it was not uncommon for white men to live with more than one wife. In modern literature and movies, Mormons are depicted as being the only ones with multiple wives, and that is accurate, we did, as frontier people live that aspect of God's law, but we were not the only ones.
Which brings us to the Law, which Law?
God has laws, and men have a laws. Polygamy is the lawful practice of having more than one wife, but according to who's law. If it's the law of the United states, Does the law make something moral?
Abortion is legal, but it's condemned in the Bible, so I think it's immoral. Polygamy is illegal, but it's approved of in the Bible, therefore I think it's moral. There are many in the US of A who believe that making something legal makes it moral, conservatives are not supposed to believe that. Conversely Conservatives should not believe that making something illegal makes it immoral.
When Joseph Smith and the Mormons were practicing it it was legal federally, locally, and Biblically.. Nauvoo had a charter that allowed the city to decide if such laws would apply to the city and when the Mormons first arrived in the Utah territory, the Edmunds–Tucker Act had not been passed yet, The passage of this law and it's support in the supreme court signaled the end of the church's practice of Polygamy in that the 12th Article of faith requires the church to keep all the laws of the land and so the First official Declaration of the church was issued by the prophet, which contains the following:Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.Thus, the church is not now or will it be, while it is against the law of the land, promoting active practice of polygamy.
There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.
Polygamy is not Adultery. Polygamy, or in this case more accurately polygyny, is the practice of multiple wives in a marriage, Adultery is sex out side of marriage. Therefore sex in a polygamous marriage is not adultery.Joseph Smith and Polygamy
Some anti's will inevitably point out that the marriage has to be "legal", (see Polygamy is (or was) Illegal).
If a marriage (between the persons in question) is in force, Sex between those within that marriage covenant cannot legitimately be called adultery.
This topic has a lot of Sub questions:Doesn't the Book of Mormon Forbid polygamy?
Q: Didn't Joseph just create polygamy because he was a sex fiend?
A: If you start from "he was a bad man" you will inevitably end up with yes; If you start with he was a prophet of God you will inevitably end up with no; if you start with an open mind you have to find out if he was a prophet, see Putting our religion to "the test".
Q: Didn't Joseph marry other men's wives?
A: The short answer is yes, the long answer is no. Clear? I didn't think so this is why anti Mormons love to bring this up. Communication then was not as good or immediate as it is now, often a woman's husband would be gone for years and she would have assumed he was dead, Joseph or one of the other men in the church would marry these women so they could take care of them (women being unable to own property, enemies of the church would try to seize their land). There were also women who wanted to be sealed for all time and eternity to a worthy male, but their husband was not worthy, they could not, some of these women were also "married" to worthy men in the church, however, these women continued to live with their current husbands for the rest of their lives because the marriage was only for eternity, not for mortality. this makes for a very confusing mess, and for competing claims with some of these women believing that since they were married to Joseph, any child they bore was his (biology was apparently not a frontier strong suit), thus we are left with these competing claims. There is no proof that Joseph fathered a single child from these women. Allegations that he did abound among the anti Mormons, and among some who want to be descended from him. However, Genetic studies performed on all who claim to be his descendants have proven to be negatives for all his wives but Emma.
Q: Did Joseph Smith marry any fourteen year old girls?
A: True, a fourteen year old woman was considered a marriageable age, boys were considered men at the age of twelve and often left home to seek their fortunes by 14. Joseph also married a 57 year old widow.
Q: Didn't Joseph (or the church) teach that you had to practice polygamy in order to be saved?
A: No, less than 1% of the church ever practiced polygamy, the church does teach that marriage is required in order to obtain the Highest degree of glory in heaven, and the principle of polygamy has to be accepted, not the practice. (the principle being that it's valid as it was in the bible).
Q: Didn't Joseph marry women against their will?
A: No, there were women like Helen Mar Kimball who were pressured to marry Joseph by their family, but arranged marriages were also common then and the fact of arrangement by someone else means pressure from outside the individual.
If there is a question which should be added here, Please FM me.
Actually this is a very good point, Mormons believe in a Book called the Book of Mormon which has the strongest passage speaking out against polygamy than any other passage of scripture I know of. The Passage is in:Polygamy is Immoral
Jacob 2:23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.WOW Pretty strong stuff huh? If that was in the Bible, unrefuted by the Bible elsewhere, well I wouldn't be writing this section I would not be defending polygamy as biblical.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
35 Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.
Why does it matter where it's from? Well, if the Book of Mormon is scripture, then Joseph Smith is a prophet, if Joseph Smith is not a prophet then who cares what he wrote?
This is circular logic by Anti Mormons, "Since Joseph Smith speaks for God he violated God's word which he wrote when he said God said something else later, thus he is not a Prophet of God. (God does not change, God does change what he is saying based on the People he is talking to, Nineveh anyone?, Jesus fulfilling the law of Moses? (an eternal covenant) there's more, but I hope you get the point.
You should also ask what is this whoredom Being condemned in Jacob? What is a Whoredom?
Simply put it is lewd and lustful behavior, Polygamy as practiced by Abraham and Jacob and Moses is never described as being lewd. David and Solomon however had lots of "stuff" going on that would fit into the red light districts of some towns. Polygamy is not to be practiced like a whore house.
There is a principle which is if God has to command us not to do something, he will do so in excess so there is no excuse. like the law of Moses was stricter than was needed before Moses, and since Christ. Here are a few examples of this from Mormon Scriptures as well: D&C 58:2626 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.D&C 89:1-31 A Word OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—The Word of Wisdom (section 89 of the D&C) was originally given as a suggestion, not a command, when the "saints" widely ignored it, it became a commandment (as it is for members of the church today).
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
So if you don't listen to suggestions, God will command and be stricter then the suggestion so everyone will know where the "line" is so people can't say they didn't know.
In the book of Jacob, the men were marrying, having a fling and divorcing the women later. many were doing this to punish their earlier wives and others with lewd intent. This lewd and lascivious behavior is against God's will and so he forbid them to practice polygamy completely.
Joseph told the church this was not the Lord's will for our day. and if he was a prophet, he was speaking for God, if not, he was speaking for himself. What people need to do is find out if Joseph was a prophet or not in oder to know if Jacob 2 matters or not.
Morality today for most Americans is determined by the Bible. The Bible has no prohibition on polygamy, indeed, the many important prophets had multiple wives. (Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob) and in at least one instance God says he (God) gave multiple wives as a blessing (to David).Polygamy leads to other sins
The bible does have specific disapproval of Divorce and remarriage, or serial polygamy which is widely practiced in America today.
This is nothing more than religious guilt by association. The logic is simple: I knew a man who read the Bible and he beat his wife... (conclusion reading the Bible makes you beat your wife...)Only a Mormon would promote polygamy
you may laugh but I had this exact, well it was in Chinese, but translated story from a Buddhist man we tried to teach in Taiwan.
Does polygamy practiced they way it was in the bible eliminate all sin? No, but neither does marriage, does a monogamous marriage eliminate all sin? again no. We are all sinners.
To suggest that a behavior which was practiced by many righteous men in the OT and many early Christians as well is not Biblical is just denial of reality.
Really, there are tons of "non Mormon" polygamy sites that are striving to point to reality, here are a few: (2520)The Bible approves of Polygamy. It's a fact one arrived at by any who actuality study it as these great men have.Do I agree with all the reasoning here? No, but it's not just Mormons who are saying Polygamy is Biblical.
- Love that Works FAQ
- TheologyWeb - Is polygamy truly unBiblical?
- Tertullian - Ante Nicene - Admits that polygamy was commanded by god in the OT, says not anymore though.
- FIFTEEN OBJECTIONS TO POLYGAMY ANSWERED
Here is a page by Mormons on the early "Church Fathers" and their views on Polygamy
Some Quotes:
TertullianAs I think, moreover, each pronouncement and arrangement is (the act) of one and the same God; who did then indeed, in the beginning, send forth a sowing of the race by an indulgent laxity granted to the reins of connubial alliances, until the world should be replenished, until the material of the new discipline should attain to forwardness: now, however, at the extreme boundaries of the times, has checked (the command) which He had sent out, and recalled the indulgence which He had granted; not without a reasonable ground for the extension (of that indulgence) in the beginning, and the limitation of it in the end. (Tertullian, " Exhortation to Chastity," (6) Ante-Nicene Fathers 6:53–54)Justin Martyr
Tertullian's perspective is strikingly similar to Jac. 2:30, in which monogamy is the norm, but God may command exceptions to "raise up seed."Justin Martyr argued that David's sin was only in the matter of Uriah's wife, and echoed a common early Christian idea that marriage was a "mystery," or sacred rite of the type which Latter-day Saints associate with temple worship:Augustine
And this one fall of David, in the matter of Uriah's wife, proves, sirs, " I said, "that the patriarchs had many wives, not to commit fornication, but that a certain dispensation and all mysteries might be accomplished by them; since, if it were allowable to take any wife, or as many wives as one chooses, and how he chooses, which the men of your nation do over all the earth, wherever they sojourn, or wherever they have been sent, taking women under the name of marriage, much more would David have been permitted to do this.Dialogue With Trypho (141) Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:270)
Justin saw the patriarchs' marriages not as corruptions or something which God 'winked at,' but acts with significant ritual and religious power.Even Augustine, a towering figure in Christian theology, held that polygamy was not something that was a crime before God, but rather a matter that depended more upon cultural biases:And one of my favorites from another site: Martin Luther
Again, Jacob the son of Isaac is charged with having committed a great crime because he had four wives. But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom. There are sins against nature, and sins against custom, and sins against the laws. In which, then, of these senses did Jacob sin in having a plurality of wives? As regards nature, he used the women not for sensual gratification, but for the procreation of children. For custom, this was the common practice at that time in those countries. And for the laws, no prohibition existed. The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the [secular] laws forbid it. (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: Series 1 (Augustine and Chrysostome) (Vol. 1–14) (New York: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1886–1889), 4:288)"I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter." (De Wette II, 459, ibid., pp. 329-330.)
I was posting from my phone....
And even when we do proxy work, we are just doing the ordinance, without God, it wouldn’t mean anything either.
****I had to go google that since I knew it was not from the Holy Bible. It’s from something called THE AQUARIAN GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST ****
I like to use that as it shows so-called “Prophets” are a dime a dozen!
I have a few other false “scriptures” I often use for the same purpose.
Actual conversation mormon style..."Can you prove it's wrong to me? No? then shut up."
This thread has yanked a few mormony chains, LOL.
Mormon thin-skin showing multiple eruptions!
Must not have those "opposing interpretations"!
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