Posted on 12/18/2010 6:01:48 PM PST by Gamecock
Kolokotronis wrote:
Here’s a little celebratory seasonal chant (Tone 4) for those of us who venerate Panagia. This is from the Lauds for the Matins of the Nativity. It was written in the 8th century by +Andrew of Crete.
“Make glad, O ye righteous; greatly rejoice, O ye heavens; ye mountains, dance for joy. Christ is born, and like the cherubim the Virgin makes a throne, carrying at her bosom God the Word made flesh. Shepherds glorify the new-born Child, magi offer the Master gifts. Angels sing praises, saying: ‘O Lord past understanding, glory to Thee!’ It was the good pleasure of the Father: the Word became flesh, and the Virgin bore God made man. A star spreads abroad the tidings: the Magi worship, the shepherds stand amazed, and the creation is filled with mighty joy. O Mother of God, Virgin who hast borne the Saviour, thou hast overthrown the ancient curse of Eve. For thou hast become the Mother of Him in whom the Father was well pleased, and has carried at thy bosom God the incarnate Word. We cannot fathom this mystery: but by faith alone we all glorify it, crying with thee and saying: O Lord past all interpretation, glory to Thee! O come, let us sing the praises of the Mother of the Saviour, who after bearing child still remained Virgin. Rejoice, thou Living City of God the King, in which Christ has dwelt, bringing to pass our salvation. With Gabriel we sing thy praises; with the shepherds we glorify thee, crying: O Mother of God, intercede for our salvation with Him who took flesh from thee!”
Thank you Kolokotronis!
“Again, Jesus has siblings identified as existing in the Gospels. See also Luke 8:19.”
Nope. You have a very poor translation of the Gospel. Very sad.
“And his mother and brethren came to him: and they could not come at him for the crowd.”
You are not correct. I just went and read the last part of Genesis Chapter 2 and Chapter 3 up to the verses in question.
The “woman” clearly refers to Eve.
I don’t know what you are pushing, but plain English is plain English.
You are putting meanings to the verses that are not there.
“brethren” = “brothers.”
I am online. I would have to go upstairs to get my KJV.
NIV is good enough for this discussion.
“brethren” = “brothers.”Not in the biological sense. You are trying to prove a falsehood. Your apparent reliance on bigots for education is showing. There is ZERO historical support for the heretical, anti-Catholic bigotry behind the claims of Mary having had many children.
“You are not correct.”
Your opinion, but not that of the Universal Church, the Orthodox Church or even Martin Luther and many other proddies. You seem to have a very narrow, limited understanding of how the Old and New testament work together.
For your edification, here is Haydock on that verse:
Ver. 15. She shall crush. Ipsa, the woman: so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz. the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head. (Challoner) -— The Hebrew text, as Bellarmine observes, is ambiguous: He mentions one copy which had ipsa instead of ipsum; and so it is even printed in the Hebrew interlineary edition, 1572, by Plantin, under the inspection of Boderianus. Whether the Jewish editions ought to have more weight with Christians, or whether all the other manuscripts conspire against this reading, let others inquire. The fathers who have cited the old Italic version, taken from the Septuagint agree with the Vulgate, which is followed by almost all the Latins; and hence we may argue with probability, that the Septuagint and the Hebrew formerly acknowledged ipsa, which now moves the indignation of Protestants so much, as if we intended by it to give any divine honour to the blessed Virgin Mary. We believe, however, with St. Epiphanius, that “it is no less criminal to vilify the holy Virgin, than to glorify her above measure.” We know that all the power of the mother of God is derived from the merits of her Son. We are no otherwise concerned about the retaining of ipsa, she, in this place, than in as much as we have yet no certain reason to suspect its being genuine. As some words have been corrected in the Vulgate since the Council of Trent by Pope Sixtus V. and others, by Pope Clement VIII. so, if, upon stricter search, it be found that it, and not she, is the true reading, we shall not hesitate to admit the correction: but we must wait in the mean time respectfully, till our superiors determine. (Haydock) Kemnitzius certainly advanced a step too far, when he said that all the ancient fathers read ipsum. Victor, Avitus, St. Augustine, St. Gregory, &c. mentioned in the Douay Bible, will convict him of falsehood. Christ crushed the serpent’s head by his death, suffering himself to be wounded in the heel. His blessed mother crushed him likewise, by her co-operation in the mystery of the Incarnation; and by rejecting, with horror, the very first suggestions of the enemy, to commit even the smallest sin. (St. Bernard, ser. 2, on Missus est.) “We crush,” says St. Gregory, Mor. 1. 38, “the serpent’s head, when we extirpate from our heart the beginnings of temptation, and then he lays snares for our heel, because he opposes the end of a good action with greater craft and power.” The serpent may hiss and threaten; he cannot hurt, if we resist him. (Haydock
Well, gee.
I just looked up “brethren” on dictionary.com (a notoriously bigoted site) and it gives two definitions. One is “fellow members” and the other is “brothers” (labeled an “archaic” definition).
I will keep looking for the biblical reference to “James the brother of Jesus” (haven’t found it yet).
And I *so* appreciate you stating I apparently rely on bigots.
Can’t tell you how much I appreciate that. So much so, I may convert to Catholicism.
Mark 6:3 "3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him."
Seems pretty clear to me Jesus had siblings.
“I will keep looking for the biblical reference to “James the brother of Jesus” (haven’t found it yet).”
It does not exist, in the form or meaning you want it to.
Along with virtually all important Protestant Founders (e.g., Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer), Luther accepted the traditional belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary (Jesus had no blood brothers), and her status as the Theotokos (Mother of God):
Christ…was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him… “brothers” really means “cousins” here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39).
He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb…This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. (Ibid.)
God says…”Mary’s Son is My only Son.” Thus Mary is the Mother of God. (Ibid.).
God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary’s Son, and that Mary is God’s mother…She is the true mother of God and bearer of God…Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs…just as your son is not two sons…even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone. (On the Councils and the Church, 1539).
Eau contraire. You are denying what is clearly written in Mark 6:3. See my last post to you.
According to the Catholic apologists on Free Republic, this is not really idol "worship" because Mary is not really God.
At least not yet.
“Seems pretty clear to me Jesus had siblings.”
Nope, only if you fail to understand the original language of Holy Writ.
Luther understood this:
Christ…was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him… “brothers” really means “cousins” here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39).
Right.
Just Jr Godess . . . in waiting . . . though not waiting very patiently, evidently . . . given all the elbowing her way into Jesus and Holy Spirit’s roles.
“You are denying what is clearly written in Mark 6:3. See my last post to you.”
I did, I responded. Flawed scholarship (to be kind) is behind your misreading of the Gospel. Your very modern, heretical view is derived from bigots whether you want to believe that or not. Time for Mass.
His blessed mother crushed him likewise, by her co-operation in the mystery of the Incarnation; and by rejecting, with horror, the very first suggestions of the enemy, to commit even the smallest sin.
Don't agree with this at all. It does not follow by Mary's agreement to participate in bearing Jesus that it tracks back to this verse.
BTW, who is "Haydock" and why should I consider him an authority on Scripture?
With all due respect Cronos...the point of that post was geared toward catholics consistantly bringing the topic back to Mary ....rather than Christ...who after all is the focus of Christmas. It is about His birth...the Savior has arrived.
I have attempted several times to speak of Christ only to have catholics respond with Mary as the focus of his birth. And the point is they view Mary as more significant in the birth of Christ than the event that He has come.
Enjoy your Mass. I believe in Scripture as it is written and wish to hold fast to the things of God.
Even while being called (by inference) a bigot.
“Even while being called (by inference) a bigot.”
Not what I said. You appear to be getting your misinformation about the Holy Writ and the Holy Family from sources that are bigots.
“I believe in Scripture as it is written ...”
Good, study and embrace the Truth.
“...and wish to hold fast to the things of God.”
As we all should. God Bless.
And the point is they view Mary as more significant in the birth of Christ than the event that He has come.Not one Catholic anywhere believes that. You seem to be incapable of understanding the Truth. Very sad.
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