Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
Time for correcting those in error...even in their prayers for Jesus even had to teach His diciples how to pray....
Holy Jesus, Savior, and magestic King,
help all who are in trouble
Give courage to the fainthearted,
console the sad,
heal the infirm,
answer the prayers of your people,
equip our clergy thru thy great spirit,
have special care for those in leadership and their mates,
may all ‘know’
all enjoy your presence, and be grateful for your response.
Hear our Prayers Almighty Father,
and grant them according to your perfect will.
We ask this in Jesus name and for His glory both now and forevermore.
Amen
Mismatch of logic — a grave is not an image of someone’s parents. An image of Mary is just that—an image that is being worshipped. I’m not worshipping my parents image... There is none!!!
Let’s not mix our metaphors....
Hoss
INDEED.
HIDEOUS.
WOW.
HOW INCREDIBLY BRAZEN of them!
one more thing Lord....forgive those who misdirect their prayer away from before your throne....they are misguided as you know...so bring them to your cross once more that they might realize you personally as their mediator and Savior alone.
“But a person would have to pray to Mary if they are asking her something because she is not physically here.”
No they don’t. All they have to do is say, “Mary, Mother of God, pray for us.” or “Saint whomever, Pray for us”.
“However we do not entrust the world to one or ask protection and guidance from someone who in turn is going to ask God!”
Never said we do or should, simply that we *can* ask them to pray for us in addition to our own prayers to God.
“If this is not praying to Mary then one is not praying to the Father either in the Rosary.”
The Rosary includes the Our Father. We do not ask anything of Mary other than to simply hear our prayers and to pray for us to God. That’s it.
“God says to ask Him— not Mary.”
He commands that we are to pray FOR one another. Mary is commanded to pray FOR us, as we are for one another. It’s not an either/or question, but both.
“Only God can answer ones prayer. So it becomes useless to pray to a saint, any saint no matter how great they may be.”
Again we are not PRAYING TO the saint. We are simply asking them to pray for us as we would our friend down the street. You seem hung up on the fact that she is not here in the flesh presently. I don’t understand this at all. You believe that the Holy Spirit is inside of you, helping you to pray, and that Christ is right there beside you.
I agree, only God can answer our prayers, but we are all called to pray for us, and we can ASK each other to do so at any time.
I’m glad to see you’ll willingly dig dig dig, but cannot understand a simple statement also in the catechism.
The catechism says that we can ask any of the Saints to pray for us to God.
My sons attended a RC HS. My youngest is finishing this year. When looking at colleges his only criteria was "no grotto". When asked by his Mom why, he told her he was "sick and tired of the pagan goddess worship".
Both boys recognized the Maryolatry for what it is right from the get go.
You still have them? I’ll take them if you don’t want them.
You were so blessed to grow up in the Faith.
Why would we need Mary as an intercessor, the passage above says it all.
Just putting this in perspective:
Mary speaks...and it’s all about Him...
My soul Magnifies.....”the Lord”.
My spirit rejoices in.”in “God... “MY SAVIOR”
He has regarded...
He who has done great things....”Holy is His NAme”
HIS MERCY....
HE has shown.... HIS arm;
HE has scattered the proud
HE has put down the mighty
He has filled the hungry
He has sent away the rich empty
He has helped Israel
His Mercy
He spoke to our fathers
Glory be to the Father and the Son and to the Holy Spirit..
We don’t worship them, so they are not idols. They are statues to help us honour and remember the great Saints of ages past.
Same as with Christ. We honour him through pictures and paintings. The word in the greek is Ikon, and the practice, the depiction of God and holy scenes, iconography.
To you they are idolatry. Fine. I hear what you are saying, however, you must exercise charity towards your brothers and sisters and understand that we do not worship the statues. They are not the centre or focus of the worship.
Christ is, through the mass, and the sacrifice.
Mismatch of logic — a grave is not an image of someone’s parents.
Really? There are often graves with either statuary or photographic images of the decedent present. Your (mis)use of the word logic betrays your lack of formal training in that field. HossB86 wrote:
An image of Mary is just that—an image that is being worshipped.
So you say. No proof, just a baldfaced claim. One without merit, by the way. HossB86 wrote:
I’m not worshipping my parents image... There is none!!!
No doubt that sentence made sense to you. Sadly not so much to anyone else. HossB86 wrote:
Let’s not mix our metaphors....
Indeed no! On the other hand you might try taking some basic educational courses in English and in Logic. Most community colleges have remedial courses at very low cost. Then, after you are able to use the language we ought to have in common in a rational way, let's try this discussion again. Until then:
My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden, For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation. He has shown strength with His arm: He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree. He has filled the hungry with good things; and the rich He has sent empty away. He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy; As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum, et exsultávit spíritus meus in Deo salvatóre meo, quia respéxit humilitátem ancíllæ suæ. Ecce enim ex hoc beátam me dicent omnes generatiónes, quia fecit mihi magna, qui potens est, et sanctum nomen eius, et misericórdia eius in progénies et progénies timéntibus eum. Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo, dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui; depósuit poténtes de sede et exaltávit húmiles. Esuriéntes implévit bonis et dívites dimísit inánes. Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum, recordátus misericórdiæ, sicut locútus est ad patres nostros, Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula. Glória Patri et Fílio et Spirítui Sancto. Sicut erat in princípio, et nunc et semper, et in sæcula sæculórum. Amen.
Applause! Indeed, that is the point. So what is the problem you have with honoring His Mother and her humility?
So when I ask you to pray for me that is prayer?
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
narses provided the smoking gun, Ben. This is quoted from narses’ post:
“Hear all our prayers, O Mother,
and grant them all.
We are all your children:
Grant the prayers of your children.”
1. “hear all our prayers....” Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
2. “We are all your children: Grant the prayers of your children.”
We are HER children? HER CHILDREN? We are God’s children and His ALONE.
Now... You were saying something about not praying to Mary??
Hoss
Which is why we have *zero* copies of said Latin bible?
Yet we have Greek manuscripts such as the Codex Vaticanus that are far older? Wouldn’t it make sense that we would have Latin and not Greek bibles if what you say is true?
Why didn’t St. Jerome use them then, and why would the Church undertake a translation project in the 5th century if they had access to such a document? Why didn’t they continue to print this Latin bible?
Real edified by all that Latin. /sarc
Sarcasm eh? Nice. The Latin was preceded by a modern English translation. That may have escaped your notice.
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