Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
>>You do believe in the Trinity, don’t you?<<
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Nor do I. Neither do I have a problem believing that Mary was forgiven in advance of her Original Sin. I am quite confident God could accomplish that if He so desired.
God Bless
Thank you. May God bless you and yours as well.
With all due respect, BenKenobi, if I were to say, "Here comes BenKenobi, with his mother, and his brothers Jim, Bob, and Ed," would you assume I meant anything other than your mom and those children to whom she also gave birth?
I understand that Jesus' brothers *could* have been Joseph's kids from a previous marriage, or *could* have been adopted. However, there's no evidence to support that. It seems that just common sense would indicate that the word 'brother' means just that - brother.
Now, I'll admit my near complete ignorance of Aramaic. It's possible that the word 'brother' could have a far broader cultural meaning in that language than it does in English, more like it does in Arabic. In that language, people will refer to each other as "my Muslim brother," "my Arab brother," etc, but there's always the modifier there to indicate that they do not mean a blood relation. When there's no modifier, and the context is that of family, brother means brother, not some more distant relation.
True.
>>As for the Atonement, recall the “Passover Lamb without blemish”? Christ bore our sins because he was perfect, because he was sinless<<
He was sinless but was susceptible to sin because of His human side. He did not sin. Satan would not have tried to tempt Him if he didn’t think Jesus was at least capable. That interaction would not have meant anything if He wasn’t. Ya, Ya, I know. I don’t fully understand either but God’s ways are not our ways and God’s thoughts are not our thoughts.
Thanks!
I always think of it this way. In the Greek.
Philo - love
Adelphoi - brothers (which is the word used in that passage).
What do you get when you put them together? Philadelphia.
Your turn to answer...I answered yours.
Why is Rome so intent on creating a man-centered cult of Mary worship? What exactly is the frenetic interest in lifting up an ordinary young woman any more than say, John the Baptist (who after all baptized the Creator of the Universe) or Jacob (who after all wrestled with an angel) or Jonah (who spoke with God directly)? And, look at all of the Catholics around here, they all speak prayers to Mary in their taglines and when they comment on something related. The believers pray to God...the Catholics to Mary. Hmmm.
They weren't "perfect" (God) they were only "innocent" -- like animals are innocent. But since they weren't animals they were capable of disobedience. Animals don't have the free will to disobey, they are confinded to operate only on instinct.
Well, Satan would have done it anyways, because everything he does is doomed to failure. He’s lost, the game is over, but he’s desperately trying to catch up.
The point behind it is to show people what Satan is like, and how he tempts people. Always the lesser over the greater good. Always the good for today over the good for tomorrow.
All I know is that scripture says he was fully man, more than we ourselves are men, as Adam was before the fall. He still could have chosen to sin, as Adam did, but chose not to sin despite the severe suffering to which he was subjected. Intellectual temptation, but not temptation of the sort we suffer in our desires and needs.
And the Roman cult would pour cold water on Augustine now if he were standing rebutting the Pelagian (or Semi-Pelagian) heresy it peddles now. What about Augustine? Would you like to embrace his remarks? You mentioned the so-called Fathers, so let’s talk the Pelagian controversy.
That's a lie. If you're going to insist on attacking Catholics, at least don't exaggerate to make your claim bigger than it is.
We want to tell you everything, but you don’t know the secret handshake. Sorry. See if you can purchase a decoder at the local religious bookstore.
I guess you've never seen a black lab looking guilty after getting in the trash....
Man, I’m missing out, I’d better get a quote about Mary in too!
Since you quote Irenaeus, you must agree with this:
“”The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus” (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).”
“3.1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times;...For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.
3.2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say, ] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.”
http://earlychurchtexts.com/public/irenaeus_on_tradition.htm
The greek word used here is Adelphoi, which is the same as in the last half of Philadelphia.
The Greek doesn’t limit it to brothers. There are four things it could mean.
1, it could mean half-brothers, sons of Mary
2, it could mean half-brothers by marriage, sons of Joseph.
3, it could mean kinsmen (male relatives of the same household).
4, it could mean brothers as in ‘Christian brethren’.
You are right that the context seems to refer to a familiar relation, which is why I believe the better word would be kinsmen.
Father eternal, son eternal, holy spirit eternal?
Begotton not made, one in being with the father?
ohoh.. Is there a Marion feast on November 5, (your tagline) or is that the day we all get together and eat saltcod?
I’m confused...
The problem is that the disunity is visible, and I don’t believe this is how it was ought to be in the beginning, that this is a tribute to our brokenness. I think we are all supposed to be in God’s house together.
For me personally it was this realization that brought me over. I eventually came to the conclusion that while there were things to which I disagreed, that Christ himself wanted us to be together, and it was up to me to figure this out. The conversion had to be me going to the Catholic church.
I didn’t leave because I was unhappy with the Mennonites or that they were poorly informed, it really had absolutely not a blessed thing to do with them.
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