Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
AMEN and AMEN!
ABSOLUTELY INDEED:
If venerating and praying to Mary were important or necessary, Christ would have told us so in the Bible. The apostles would have written about it.
None did.
Instead, fallen men add insult to injury as centuries pass and Christ fades as the goddess grows to celestial heights - “Queen of the Universe.”
God forbid.
Did FR become incredibly sluggish and slow the last few hrs?
Huh. Well, I was never a proddie. That’s not my background nor upbringing. You could use the label, I suppose, if you wanted to, on people who converted from some proddie pseudochurch to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I wouldn’t, but you feel free.
Hi boatbums!
Thanks; to God be the glory!
Hoss
Boatbums,
Just to clarify for you and me:
” the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”
Means the Roman Catholic Church.
Just so we don’t get confused. ;)
Hoss
Boatbums,
Just to clarify for you and me:
” the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”
Means the Roman Catholic Church.
Just so we don’t get confused. ;)
Hoss
FR seems to be up and down tonight...will leave this message in case others are also having difficulty. The site goes down while I’m reading a post...just goes away.. I do wonder if this is an attack on Jim’s site?
Do not attempt to adjust your set...or you may enter the
The LightWeight Zone! (fade to black with crazed laughing in the background)
I think you’re starting at the wrong end, as if you’re putting the Bible ahead of Christ, and reducing Christ to a mere functionary. And it’s at best vain and futile to speculate on what God “could have” done; we know only what He did. And, again, the recurring limitation to only what’s “necessary” -- sounds like the all too common grumble, “That’s not my job,” the careful avoidance of doing more than strictly required.
The end result - the salvation of God's people - would still be the same.
Again, such speculation is vain.
Roman Catholics' view of life is clouded by their untoward veneration of Jesus' mother.
Some Protestants’ (especially Calvinists’) view of reality is clouded by their untoward veneration of self -- to the extent that Christ becomes a mere functionary, whose “purpose” -- “job” in some posts -- is to save them. I find it jarring, as if Isaiah had described the seraphim glorifying God in the words, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Host -- on account of He made ME!” It’s a truly insidious idolatry of the self. Do you never glorify God because of what He is in Himself? Do you really never glorify for any of His Creation except yourself?
And what do you intend by “Jesus’ mother”? Do you believe that the Word became flesh -- that Jesus is in fact the Incarnate Word -- or that the Word merely inhabited flesh?
Christ goes so far as to tell us not to look to His mother as our family, but to His followers - those who believe in His name.
I thought it was those “who hear the word of God and keep it, which would seem to mean living by His commandments. The point being that we can’t get out of our proper response to God because someone else does it better.
Mary is simply one of those most fortunate of human beings, a sinner saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ ALONE.
She was saved from being a sinner because of the unimaginable dignity and glory of her calling, to bear God Himself. She heard the word of God and kept it!
If venerating and praying to Mary were important or necessary, Christ would have told us so in the Bible. The apostles would have written about it.
None did.
Again, the double-entry bookkeeping approach to religion. Hardly likely to inspire anyone to great heights of devotion!
Instead, fallen men add insult to injury as centuries pass and Christ fades as the goddess grows to celestial heights - "Queen of the Universe." Do some Protestants denigrate Christ to a mere functionary so that they can denigrate Mary even further, or do they really not understand the Divinity of Christ?
Uh...Mary. You know that!
Hoss
Great post!
This is not addressed to any particular person. It is only written in response to my reading the various posts on this thread.
When it comes to the title “mother of God,” it should be understood that this is correct and scriptural if it is understood in the same sense as the term “theotokos,” literally, “God bearer.” This is a very ancient title, and one that was used and defended by the very best of the ancient Church fathers, e.g. Athanasius of Alexandria, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Cyril of Alexandria. Furthermore “theotokos” was, as a term, explicitly defended and approved by the 3rd Ecumenical Council (Ephesus 431 A.D.), which is itself the last ecumenical council about which there were virtually no reservations on the part of the Reformers. At this council, the Nicene Creed, formulated at Nicaea in 325 (1st Ecumenical Council) and slightly modified (the “filioque”) at Constantinople in 381 (2nd Ecumenical Council) was explicitly upheld as the definitive confession of Christian doctrine. Also, and most interestingly, both Nestorianism and Pelagianism were explicitly rejected as false doctrine at this same council.
Whether or not anyone cares about history or not, we all remain under its effects, like it or not. From this time onward we see in church history a tendency on the part of Rome to err in the direction of Pelagianism. We also see a tendency on the part of Protestants to err in the direction of Nestorianism. Both of these tendencies are amply illustrated on this thread, and on many others on the FR Religion forum.
Coincidence? I doubt it. There really is nothing at all new under the sun. And the waywardness of man has not changed at all.
Throughout the rest of the history of Christendom we see these two threads running side by side, the first, Nestorianism and all its related errors, dealing with Christology, the person and work of the Christ, and the second, Pelagianism and all its related errors, dealing with Soteriology, the way in which sinful mankind is saved.
What is at stake beyond the overheated rhetoric of each of the two sides on this thread are the doctrines of the Christ and of salvation. These are and remain the Scylla and Charybdis of Christianity, as is so tragically illustrated on this very thread. The Protestant tendency to error in regard to Christology will, if not arrested, eventually lead to teachings like that of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. The Catholic tendency to error in regard to Soteriology will, if not arrested, eventually lead to teachings like that of pure paganism, that man saves himself.
In addition, each of these strengths, that is, sound Christology and sound Soteriology, can be falsely and wrongly defended with equally great and awful consequences. On the one hand, the Creeds demand no more of faith in regard to Mary, than that she is the “theotokos,” with all that that means for a right understanding of the person of Christ, and that she gave birth as a virgin. Anything beyond that, whether true or not, is both immaterial and unscriptural, and therefore not necessary for salvation. In regard to salvation, the Creeds demand no more of faith than that it believe what is stated therein in regard to the nature of God and what He has done for us, with all that that means for the proper relation of faith and that which is the product of faith, that is, good works. God saves ... period, end of story. The one who believes and continues in that faith is truly a child of God and, while still burdened with sin and its effects, desires to be and act like a child of God. In other words, being made a good tree by the power of God, the believer produces good fruit. All of which fruit is for the benefit of our neighbors and their salvation, for in Christ every believer has all that is needed for salvation.
The honest of each of the two sides will recognize both the principle strength and the principle weakness of their side. The deluded, whether by others or self, will now scream and throw a tantrum.
Nevertheless, Merry Christmas to all, for unto you is born a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
“Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, goodwill toward men.”
I know that is what they think they are. The one, holy, "universal" and apostolic church is the entire body of Christ and consists of all the believers in Jesus Christ. It is this called-out assembly (church) that the apostles started through the power of the Holy Spirit and continues throughout the entire world independent of outward labels the various denominations use.
There are true Christians among those in the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Anglicans, mainline Protestant and every one that names the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. God knows the heart and I'm sure he ignores the outward designations we use to differentiate ourselves.
The organization that calls itself the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church", and places itself over all others, does so under their own hubris for we know that the true church transcends human construction and it is Christ himself who is our head and great shepherd.
Listening to these anti-Catholics prattle on about what the think Catholics believe is like listening to Obama explain free market capitalism.......
Let's see...The Nestorians, or the Catholics...Hmmm...
Easy...Nestorians, hands down...
IF you can figure out how God can be born when he already existed, you may be on to something...
You guys are trying to put a human spin on something where the answer is spiritual and way beyond your pay grade...
Mary provided the flesh for a house for God...
Oooh. That left a mark. :D
Too bad they don’t understand the whole Nestorian issue but, as others have stated, they “prattle” on about it... ;)
Hoss
HossB86, so what is “the whole Nestorian issue” according to you?
917 and 933, thank you thank you. Joya
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.