Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Calvin also believed in, and practiced, burning people at the stake so I guess we should also believe that?
I suppose also that Jesus was then not the first to be born “without sin”. Hmmmm
That's what they claim...They even tell us that Jesus can't save anyone by himself...You must go thru Mary for Catholic salvation...
“We do not ourselves suffer and we are saved by the fire.”
Purgatory cleanses us of our sins, but it does not save. Only those who are already saved will go to purgatory.
How did the teaching of the Catholic Church come into being?
From Christ first and then the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15 and Galatians 2) was the first Church Council, attended by the Apostles.
The first Ecumenical (world-wide) Council was called by the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great with Pope Saint Sylvester I sitting on the Throne of Peter as the 33rd successor of Christ’s appointed Apostle. The site was the city of Nicaea, just south of Constantinople in Asia Minor in 325. This council answered Arius and condemned the Arian heresy and defined the Consubstantiality of the Son with the Father.
“We believe in one God the Father all powerful, maker of all things both seen and unseen. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten begotten from the Father, that is from the substance [Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia] of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten [Gr. gennethenta, Lat. natum] not made [Gr. poethenta, Lat. factum], CONSUBSTANTIAL [Gr. homoousion, Lat. unius substantiae (quod Graeci dicunt homousion)] with the Father, through whom all things came to be, both those in heaven and those in earth; for us humans and for our salvation he came down and became incarnate, became human, suffered and rose up on the third day, went up into the heavens, is coming to judge the living and the dead. And in the holy Spirit.
And those who say
“there once was when he was not”, and “before he was begotten he was not”, and that
he came to be from
things that were not, or
from another hypostasis [Gr. hypostaseos] or substance [Gr. ousias, Lat. substantia],
affirming that the Son of God is subject to change or alteration
these the catholic and apostolic church anathematises”
http://www.dailycatholic.org/history/1ecumen.htm
Also here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
Other Canons of the Church dealing with areas that were cultural but affecting the Faith were discussed.
Consubstantiality is a major tenet of Christianity. Difficult, yes. Time consuming and dealt with Prayerfully, yes.
It is what the Church teaches.
Oh and yes, there are footnotes, from the Scriptures and the Fathers.
CS Lewis “It’s no good asking for a simple religion... That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we had always expected, I should feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it is not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have. So let us leave behind all these boys’ philosophies - these over-simple answers. The problem is not simple, and the answer is not going to be simple either.”
http://atkinslightquest.com/Documents/Religion/Special-Studies/MereChristianity.htm
Without Nicea and the Church there would be nothing but those who resemble Mormons and Unitarians.
I did not “bail” on you. Your bizarre and wrongheaded remarks just don’t get in the way of work.
The short answer is, in toto, no.
But, that is only because you did not read my first answer. We, the believers in Christ alone, do not in any way support, endorse, agree with or recognize the vile Mariolotry promoted by Rome or Luther or Calvin or anyone else. Men are errant. Certainly Rome is. God delivered His word to clearly set out that “there are none righteous, not even one” other than His Son.
It is interesting that you are beginning to read Luther and Calvin and Zwingli, however. Perhaps some of their more biblical comments will get traction...perhaps not.
That’s because Christ never had a beginning. You folks *do* teach that Christ is Eternal?
No, otherwise those who were born before Mary could not be saved. Yet the Catholic church teaches that Moses and Elijah are among the elect.
Some Christians have really bad soteriology.
So because human nature is fallen Catholic teachings are false? Not really a good point to hang your hat here. Christianity is true in spite of Christians.
Christ existed before His birth ... but He did have a birth (at which point He was the first to be born without sin).
SnakeDoc
You’ve understood it perfectly.
“Why not just ask God, directly?”
Sure, but we are commanded to pray for one another. To help each other bear our burdens.
That’s not what scripture says. Scripture says he was ‘born of a Virgin’. Scripture does not say, “He was the first to be born without sin”.
Remember, there is Adam and Eve, also, who were created by God. They too, were sinless in the beginning, before the Fall.
Remember that Scripture says that Christ was fully God and fully Man? Christ inherited his full human nature from Mary. Given the curse of Adam which runs through each of us, how could he be without sin?
>> So because human nature is fallen Catholic teachings are false?
Actually ... yes, in a mannter of speaking.
Maybe not in exactly the manner that you’re referencing — but, personally, the biggest reason that I am not Catholic is the doctrine of infallibility. If we are all fallen, none beyond Christ Himself can be infallible, doctrinally or otherwise.
SnakeDoc
So you are arguing that oral tradition is preserved in the Word?
He is without sin because He is God. The better question is ... how could she be without sin?
SnakeDoc
“If we are all fallen, none beyond Christ Himself can be infallible, doctrinally or otherwise.”
Ok. That point I can understand.
However, here’s the problem. Do you believe that Scripture has perfect accuracy with respect to what Christ taught? Scripture is the work of men, of the copyists and of the original authors, whom God worked through to provide the copy that you have in front of you today.
The point is that God can work through someone to ensure perfect transmission of his Word. The same way in which Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are considered to be inspired by God, is the same by which the Pope operates when he speaks from the chair. The exact same manner.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.
This is pretty much the whole dogma. The only "force" involved is the divine will.. We who pray for the dead are but beggers at the king's gate, and so are the saints within, who bow before Him who sits on the throne.
Adam and Eve were created, not born.
SnakeDoc
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