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Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary
Why I Am a Catholic ^ | 12/16/10 | Frank Weathers

Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow

Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.

Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.

Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.

Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.

Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.

Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.

The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.

This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.

Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!

But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!

Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,

Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

John Calvin:

It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."

I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.

And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.

And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.

Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!

To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: freformed
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To: Deo volente; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
I don't know any Catholics, either priests or laymen, that have that false impression.

That's because Catholics have been brainwashed into what the RCC says to them that it means and, as in almost every other situation of words, has changed the meaning.

Because Catholics have been so brainwashed and indoctrinated in that rationalization, they fail to see what it REALLY says, in plain, unadulterated, non-redefined English.

When Catholics see the term *mother of God* they immediately think of what they are preconditioned to think the term means. They seem so be singularly incapable of reading it AS IS, like the rest of the human race.

Deliberately using a term which can be so easily misunderstood is foolish as best and deceitful at worst. But it's pretty par for the course for Catholicism.

1,341 posted on 12/20/2010 10:13:46 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
"No, pnsn did not start it. He did not post the exorcism prayer which started all this."

Show me the post and then convince me you are not dragging things from post thread to thread in violation of the rules.

1,342 posted on 12/20/2010 10:19:22 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: metmom; narses; Natural Law
Hogwash.

The term "Mother of God" absolutely recognizes the Divinity of Christ. He is one Divine Person with two natures, Divine and human. "Mother of GOD".

Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Mary is the Mother of God. Nobody is claiming she was His mother from all eternity. That's absurd, since Mary is a creature, and had a beginning in time.

Jesus' human nature also had a beginning in time, but that nature is inextricably linked with His Divine nature in ONE PERSON. Mary became the mother of that ONE PERSON at the moment of the Incarnation. You cannot seperate the two natures of Christ or make Him into two persons unless you want to adopt one of the early Christological heresies which no mainline Christian church believes anymore. You just can't.
1,343 posted on 12/20/2010 10:20:48 PM PST by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: metmom
"That's because Catholics have been brainwashed into what the RCC says to them that it means..."

That is one of the stupidest analyses I have ever read. A voluntary organization establishes a lexicon for its members that lays down a number of definitions for use by that organization and then the non-members call that brainwashing. Sounds like those outside of that organization have been brainwashed...... four legs good, two legs bad.....

1,344 posted on 12/20/2010 10:26:13 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: metmom

Yawn.


1,345 posted on 12/20/2010 10:27:43 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: metmom
You need to remind your Catholic cohorts who have flagrantly violated the same directive which you are demanding compliance from a non-Catholic for.

As you've pinged the Religion Moderator 3 times tonight, I would say that you're doing just fine on your own.

1,346 posted on 12/20/2010 10:29:31 PM PST by WrightWings (Remember, Remember, the Fifth of November...)
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To: Deo volente; BenKenobi

Now this bears some examination. You say:

” Mary is His mother, than she is the Mother of God”, But

“Not of the Trinity, of course, or even of the Son from eternity (that would be absurd) but of the Son of God made Man”

Then the “Son from eternity” is NOT the “Son of God made Man”?

When did he cease being so? Cease being “Son from eternity”?


1,347 posted on 12/20/2010 10:33:52 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: metmom; narses
When Catholics see the term *mother of God* they immediately think of what they are preconditioned to think the term means. They seem so be singularly incapable of reading it AS IS, like the rest of the human race.

So you claim to know what one billion Catholics alive today, not to mention the several billion who have lived since the Council of Ephesus settled the matter in the 5th century, immediately think (or thought of) when they hear this term? Would that include all the popes, theologians, preachers, etc who have discoursed on this term throughout the the history of the Church, or are you only speaking of living Catholics?

In any event, that's some amazing telepathy! I've never heard of such prodigious mind reading! Additionally, the knowledge of how the rest of the human race discerns this term is just too much power to be vested in one person! I'm in awe.

Pardon the sarcasm, it's all in fun, I assure you. By the way, we Catholics DO read the term "AS IS". See the links on the heresy of Nestorianism to understand why we call her by that term.
1,348 posted on 12/20/2010 10:35:31 PM PST by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: metmom

Yawn = YAWN.

Yawn = BORING.

Yawn = REALLY BORING.


1,349 posted on 12/20/2010 10:35:45 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: Quix; metmom
Mother of Jesus is accurate and correct and gives no false impressions about who she is and what her role in God’s plan of redemption is.

I've referred to Joseph as "Jesus' earthly father," and Mary as "Jesus' earthly mother." It tends to annoy the Catholics, but that's not my intention.

1,350 posted on 12/20/2010 10:46:33 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: metmom; Deo volente
Claiming she is the mother of God gives the false impression that His nature came from her. Jesus divine nature comes from the Father, not Mary.

Did God, the Creator, precede Mary or did Mary precede God? If Mary preceded God, the Creator, than Genesis is in error.

Is Genesis in error?

1,351 posted on 12/20/2010 10:48:47 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Grizzled Bear

hmmmmmm


1,352 posted on 12/20/2010 10:48:51 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Grizzled Bear

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


1,353 posted on 12/20/2010 10:53:45 PM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: count-your-change
You either misunderstood my point, or I could have expressed it in clearer terms.

I'll try it again. Mary did not give birth IN ETERNITY to the Second Person of the Trinity. Mary is a creature, and had a beginning in time, just like you and me. The eternal Son of God did not take His Divine nature from Mary.
She did, however, conceive in her womb the Son of God made Man. He is still the eternal Son of God, as well as Man.

I did not say that the “Son from eternity” ceased being so when He became Incarnate in Mary's womb. I merely said that she was not His mother FROM ETERNITY. She became His mother in time. That's a huge distinction.

1,354 posted on 12/20/2010 11:14:53 PM PST by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: Grizzled Bear

Actually, the Bible does not refer to Joseph as “Jesus’ earthly father.”

When the angels spoke to Joseph, they said, “Take the child and His mother,” not “Take your wife and child.”


1,355 posted on 12/20/2010 11:18:43 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne

That’s why I said “I refer to...”


1,356 posted on 12/20/2010 11:27:25 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Grizzled Bear

Oh, well, I’m Catholic, and I’m not annoyed.

Too nice a night to be annoyed with anyone or anything.


1,357 posted on 12/20/2010 11:29:28 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Grizzled Bear
Genesis is not in error. God the Father preceded Mary, God the Son preceded Mary, and God the Holy Spirit preceded Mary. The Holy Trinity is eternal. Mary is a creature, and had a beginning in time. But Mary, when she conceived Jesus in her womb, AT THAT MOMENT became the mother of the eternal Son of God made Man. He is one Divine Person with two natures, not two persons. She is the mother of that ONE PERSON.

Google “Nestorianism”, “Christological heresies”, and “Mother of God” for a better understanding of this issue.

1,358 posted on 12/20/2010 11:29:38 PM PST by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: Judith Anne
Too nice a night to be annoyed with anyone or anything.

Easy for you to say. I'm annoyed because I can't see the lunar eclipse which is happening right now. It's raining outside, and has been raining almost continuously since Friday, here in southern California.

:)
1,359 posted on 12/20/2010 11:35:14 PM PST by Deo volente (God willing, America will survive this Obamination.)
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To: metmom
That's because Catholics have been brainwashed into what the RCC says to them that it means and, as in almost every other situation of words, has changed the meaning.

Because Catholics have been so brainwashed and indoctrinated in that rationalization, they fail to see what it REALLY says, in plain, unadulterated, non-redefined English.

When Catholics see the term *mother of God* they immediately think of what they are preconditioned to think the term means. They seem so be singularly incapable of reading it AS IS, like the rest of the human race.

Deliberately using a term which can be so easily misunderstood is foolish as best and deceitful at worst. But it's pretty par for the course for Catholicism.

Every word worth repeating.

That "pre-conditioning" goes a long way in explaining the bizarre inability to understand simple declarative sentences such as "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus."

Somehow, they see "...and Mary."

1,360 posted on 12/20/2010 11:37:50 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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