Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
Ugly lies.
As an adult conducting his three-year ministry, Christ did not "need" His mother. He tells us that very clearly when He is asked to see His mother and brothers, and instead points to His many followers who are truly "His mother and brothers and sisters."
And God forbid, Mary is NOT the "Mother of Men."
Rome bastardizes the Holy Scriptures and thus can never understand the truth.
Repent, Rome, if God so wills.
If I am to believe you, defending that statement with the musings of a mere mortal (Knox) makes you a Catholic apologist by definition.....LOL
Dear Christian Friends,
I see you’re having a spirited discussion about who is ‘saved’ or not.
Since this topic concerns the legitimacy of the Catholic Church, I find
it appropriate to share this with you.
Just some good news here for the ‘good of the order.’
The joy found from a Jew discovering the Messiah is
ever new - no matter how recently it occured.
At the conclusion of WWII, the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli,
converted to Catholicism. His story is wonderfully told in the book
he wrote, Before the Dawn.
When asked “Why didn’t you choose one of the Protestant denominations, which are not so demanding?”, Zolli replied,
“Because protesting is not attesting.”
What an elegant testimony, a faith which professes what it
believes (attesting), rather than protesting against what it does
not believe (protestantism).
Something for our non-Catholic brothers and
sisters to consider.
That is a rather harsh, but accurate way to introduce and characterize what you followied it with. Nice of you to warn everyone.
Knox was, however, correct in his summary of the papacy.
AMEN!! Merry Christmas btw, I have to get back to decorating before Reconcilliation tonight!
John 3 16 Lovely, isn’t it?
John
Chapter 3
1
1 Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2
2
He came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you are doing unless God is with him.”
3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 from above.”
4
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
5
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
6
What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
7
Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’
8
The wind 4 blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9
Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can this happen?”
10
Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?
11
Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony.
12
If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?
13
No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.
14
And just as Moses lifted up 5 the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15
6 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”
16
For God so loved the world that he gave 7 his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn 8 the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
18
Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19
9 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20
For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21
But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.
22
10 After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing.
23
John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, 11 because there was an abundance of water there, and people came to be baptized,
24
12 for John had not yet been imprisoned.
25
Now a dispute arose between the disciples of John and a Jew 13 about ceremonial washings.
26
So they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, the one who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you testified, here he is baptizing and everyone is coming to him.”
27
John answered and said, “No one can receive anything except what has been given him from heaven.
28
You yourselves can testify that I said (that) I am not the Messiah, but that I was sent before him.
29
The one who has the bride is the bridegroom; the best man, 14 who stands and listens for him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made complete.
30
He must increase; I must decrease.”
31
15 The one who comes from above is above all. The one who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of earthly things. But the one who comes from heaven (is above all).
32
He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.
33
Whoever does accept his testimony certifies that God is trustworthy.
34
For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God. He does not ration his gift 16 of the Spirit.
35
The Father loves the Son and has given everything over to him.
36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
The fact that Mary was the motivation for this mans conversion says it all ... Instead of asking himself "why I am protestant" he should have asked himself what do I believe about Christ? What do I believe about salvation.. because one is a protestant or grows up a protestant does not mean he is saved.. he is just as lost as the people he goes to mass with if he is trusting that the church can save him ...
I have always believed that a saved man or woman would never cross the tiber ..the filthy water would repel him
Luther's EARLY musings on Mary were later retracted, in great part, as he rid himself of the paganism inherent in papist teaching. If some of the virulent Mariology lingered in his mind, well, all men are fallen. He knows the truth now.
May we pray Roman Catholic apologists follow his lead.
Post tenebras lux.
I have always believed that a saved man or woman would never cross the tiber ..the filthy water would repel him
AMEN!
The Holy Spirit may lead a man through Rome, but He will never leave him there.
Post tenebras lux.
Continued:
BUT, Paul gives some caveats to our acceptance of the Salvic Gift of our Lord. It has nothing to do with our Lord, and everything to do with the human heart:
(Jeremiah expressed it, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?” (Jer. 17:9).)
Jesus told us, there are those who “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13).
Paul:
1 Cor 4:3-5
Quote:
3 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.
4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness
and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.
because you might have saved some from fear and trembling:
2Philippians 2:12
Quote:
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
when Paul led some into thinking that their salvation was not assured:
Heb 10:26-27
Quote:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
obviously given to the overt spiritual hubris Paul saw:
Matt 24:13
Quote:
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Paul obviously was concerned his body would betray him in his desire to live in Christ:
1 Cor 9:27
Quote:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should
be a castaway.
Paul realizes that he could disqualify himself from the offer of salvation that he has accepted:
1 Cor 10:12-13
Quote:
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able;
but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
He even seems to teach that those who have become partakers of the Holy Spirit can be lost:
Heb 6:4-6
Quote:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
p.s. a few more verses that might draw your attention:
cf: (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46)
Rom. 11:17-24
“See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness;
otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).”
Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others
I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).
What religion are you? If Christian, which sect?
Not at all. I submit to God, His Son and the Holy Spirit. I submit to that which I can verify is information from the Holy Spirit, or opinions which are justifiable given verifiable information from the Holy Spirit — i.e. Scripture and justifiable inferences/interpretations therefrom.
I do not believe that Luther, Calvin or the Catholic heirarchy have any special interprative powers beyond that of any educated Christian theologian. I will take, on faith, that the Bible is correct and is the work of the Holy Spirit ... but if you want me to accept that the extra-Biblical elaboration of any particular man is correct, you’re going to have to justify it logically given the information we can verify comes from the Holy Spirit.
I find no scriptural justification for believing in Mary’s perpetual virginity, or that she was any less in need of Salvation than the rest of us. I have no reason to believe these are not simply inferences, interpretations, or elaborations drawn from the mind of the interpreters rather than the will of the Holy Spirit.
SnakeDoc
He didn't say anything of the sort.
Of course, admitting to that truth wouldn't have given you your jumping off point against all the "lost" Catholics.
Is that suppose to be some kind of defacto "proof" that the doctrine is correct? Luther was an Augustinian monk ... its unreasonable to expect he dropped every piece of doctrine he learned.
EXCELLENT.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
Apparently you did not read mine which stated that yours was nonsense.
Luther's EARLY musings on Mary were later retracted, in great part, as he rid himself of the paganism inherent in papist teaching.
I'd like to see a link or reference which supports that statement.
Yours expectantly...........
PS: when you find it, you might send it to the author of this article. Apparently he missed it, too.
A clear whiff ...
THAT ONE haunts the RCC
AT LEAST
As much as the Proddy groups.
THAT MUCH has been demonstrated on FR relentlessly as well as with virtually all of the RC's that Proddys have contact with. RC politicians are another proof. Some RC's on FR have guesstimated that only about 20% of those claiming to be Roman Catholic are authentically so in any significant degree of consistency in their beliefs and behaviors . . . with what the RCC 'authentically' teaches.
Given the plethera of RCC pronouncements . . . it's still mystifying to most Proddys how any single individual could possibly determine--even considering the Catechism--what the RCC REALLY teaches on a given specific--particularly with all the footnotes taken into account! LOL.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
Why is it that you guys can insert your own words right next God's Holy words and then claim that God agrees with your version of His scripture???
There is no penalty box...As we pass thru, the bad works get burned up...
We are not cleansed by a fire...We do not ourselves suffer and we are saved by the fire that burns up the bad works...
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Your really think the Spirit of God is going to sit in a jail in purgatory waiting for your relatives to buy him out of jail???
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