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Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary
Why I Am a Catholic ^ | 12/16/10 | Frank Weathers

Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow

Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.

Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.

Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.

Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.

Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.

Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.

The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.

This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.

Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!

But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!

Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,

Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

John Calvin:

It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."

I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.

And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.

And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.

Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!

To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: freformed
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"So I can't say a certain religion is a "disease," but you can say that "my inner thoughts" are "a cancer?""

I can see that critical reading and veracity are not your strong points. I said that what leaks out onto these pages is a cancer on Christianity. I meant it.

Now tell us all again how this posting isn't about me and is not yet another violation of the rules you seek to impose on others. How is stating my motives not mind reading. It doesn't appear that you get the rules or this whole Christianity thing, doc.

So, since we have all been advised that you are not a moderator your commentary and adjudications on the rules is just so much more noise. Now go spread your joy somewhere else.

1,221 posted on 12/20/2010 4:02:05 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

“What error is that?

“Foul disease” is not defined as a “venereal disease” by anyone but someone whose mind is in the gutter.”

Stop digging, “DR”.

The old saw is when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.


1,222 posted on 12/20/2010 4:05:45 PM PST by OpusatFR
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To: Natural Law
Your post is not a realistic retelling of our posts. Thankfully anyone can read for themselves to see where yours errs.

Try to abide by the rules and stop making personal comments.

1,223 posted on 12/20/2010 4:07:27 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: OpusatFR

lolol. I prove you wrong, and yet you STILL declare victory.

Thankfully, your posts are here in black and white for all of us to read to see for ourselves where you err.

Again and again and again.


1,224 posted on 12/20/2010 4:09:01 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Try to stop telling other posters what to do.

Bet you can’t, *snicker*


1,225 posted on 12/20/2010 4:12:05 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: presently no screen name
Knowledge of God is Knowing HIM through HIS WORD alone. Does it say knowledge of Mary (oh pray for us sinners), co-redeemer, saints, catechism, man made church doctrine?

AMEN!

The things of God is spiritually-discerned. Men either possess the Holy Spirit or they don't. And yet when men in faith pray to Christ alone to be given the Holy Spirit, God is gracious and answers their prayer.

They need to read their Bible and pray for guidance.

1,226 posted on 12/20/2010 4:15:06 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Try to abide by the rules and stop making personal comments.


Perhaps it’s against the subset of their RELIGION of the Rabid Clique types of RC’s???

Certainly couldn’t say for certain . . . however, some likely candidates do come to mind on occasion.


1,227 posted on 12/20/2010 4:17:24 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Judith Anne
If Roman Catholic apologists would stop breaking the rules while posting to me and about me, I'd be happy to stop reminding them of the rules.

Bet you can’t, *snicker*

That would be mind-reading, Judith. Please stop.

1,228 posted on 12/20/2010 4:17:49 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: HossB86
"So are you mind reading, accusing Dr. E of having demons leak out?"

No, I am merely looking at the vileness and demons that have leaked into this forum and simply tracing them back to their source. It doesn't take mind readings or even any sophisticated forensics.

1,229 posted on 12/20/2010 4:18:42 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

“DR” Eckleburg:

“Foul disease” is not defined as a “venereal disease” by anyone but someone whose mind is in the gutter.”

“lolol. I prove you wrong, and yet you STILL declare victory.

Thankfully, your posts are here in black and white for all of us to read to see for ourselves where you err.

Again and again and again.”

~~~~~~~~~~~

DR Eckleburg states:

“”Foul disease” is not defined as a “venereal disease” by anyone but someone whose mind is in the gutter.”

~~~~~~~~

Once again, stop digging yourself deeper into that hole, “DR.”


1,230 posted on 12/20/2010 4:20:22 PM PST by OpusatFR
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To: HossB86
Actually, she is the mother of Jesus. God is eternal and without beginning. He can have no mother.

AMEN. Your correct understanding illustrates Rome's mistaken concept of the Trinity.

Mary plays no part in the Trinity, and God does not have a mother. Mary was a fallen sinner saved by grace, just like all believers.

Somehow that's not enough for a lot of Roman Catholics. Sad.

1,231 posted on 12/20/2010 4:22:50 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: OpusatFR
"Once again, stop digging yourself deeper into that hole, “DR.”"

Its like watching the North Korean Navy. Even though they have taken a massive hit they are still still full of bull and bluster, all the while laying down a smoke screen and working the Damage Control Teams overtime. The fact that "Foul Disease" has probably risen to number 22 on the Google hits parade today shows you all of the proof of guilt you need.

1,232 posted on 12/20/2010 4:25:45 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: OpusatFR
I'm not digging, Opus. Your goofy comment has been proven incorrect.

No matter how many times the pope dresses up in ermine capes and red Prada shoes, he's still nothing but a naked emperor of error.

1,233 posted on 12/20/2010 4:27:16 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Natural Law

lol. Where’s the “massive hit,” NL?

Is it where Claudius called madness a “foul disease?”


1,234 posted on 12/20/2010 4:29:19 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Natural Law
"Foul disease" is not defined as a "venereal disease" by anyone but someone whose mind is in the gutter.

I learned today it's association with sex diseases from NL pointing it out and who, also, claims I didn't benefit from my years of Catholic education.

IMO, Foul disease is cancer and, also, Alzheimer - one kills the body, one kills the mind.
1,235 posted on 12/20/2010 4:30:13 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
They need to read their Bible and pray for guidance.

For He is Faithful. Amen!
1,236 posted on 12/20/2010 4:32:14 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

They just make things up.

Then they congratulate themselves on imaginary victories.

Hilarious, but also sad. This isn’t politics or recreation. It’s Christianity and eternal salvation by Christ alone is the focus.

Or at least it should be.


1,237 posted on 12/20/2010 4:32:41 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; HossB86

“Nestorius (c. 428-451)– Christ was two separate persons in one body – Mary could not possibly have given birth to God, but only to the man, Jesus – “I cannot speak of God as being two or three months old” – Christ’s deity is being sacrificed for his humanity”

“DR” E states:

“Actually, she is the mother of Jesus. God is eternal and without beginning. He can have no mother.
AMEN. Your correct understanding illustrates Rome’s mistaken concept of the Trinity.”

MOLEY WOW! You people really are Nestorians!


1,238 posted on 12/20/2010 4:35:16 PM PST by OpusatFR
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To: presently no screen name
For He is Faithful. Amen!

AMEN!

"Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." -- 1 Thess. 5:24

1,239 posted on 12/20/2010 4:36:15 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: OpusatFR
""Madness" is the "foul disease" being discussed here."

Only a functional illiterate would presume that Shakespeare's use of the term in both Hamlet and King Leer had absolutely no connection to a major cause of 16th insanity, syphilis. Shakespeare mentions symptoms in at least 10 of his plays.

1,240 posted on 12/20/2010 4:36:54 PM PST by Natural Law
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