Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: narses; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; Belteshazzar; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...

Nope...

Read Exodus 12 sometime about the Passover. What Jesus was celebrating was the Passover. The Passover pointed to Him. Different aspects of the Passover meal represented Jesus Himself so that the Jews would recognize the Messiah when He came.

What He was doing in making those statements was telling the disciples what the different elements of the Passover meal represented.

He is the lamb without spot or blemish. Notice here in Exodus 12:43-46 And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the statute of the Passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, but every slave that is bought for money may eat of it after you have circumcised him. No foreigner or hired servant may eat of it. It shall be eaten in one house; you shall not take any of the flesh outside the house, and you shall not break any of its bones.

Notice the prohibition against breaking the bones of the Passover lamb. Jesus not having any bones broken fulfilled that and other prophecy.

Exodus 12:[15] Seven days shall you eat unleavened bread: in the first day there shall be no leaven in your houses: whosoever shall eat any thing leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall perish out of Israel.

Leaven represents sin in Scripture. Unleavened bread represents the sinless body of Christ.

What Jesus was doing in saying that the bread was His body, was telling them what the bread in reality represented. Same with the wine. Jesus called the cup the fruit of the vine even though He told them that it represented His blood.

Nowhere in Scripture is there a record of Him giving instructions on how to perform a mass. The prohibition against drinking blood has never been lifted and as a matter of fact, is one of the few OT commands to be reiterated by the Council of Jerusalem.

The cup could not have been turned into actual blood during that Passover meal because if they had drunk it it would have defiled them. Jesus especially could not have drunk His own blood as that would have defiled Him and rendered Him incapable of being the spotless, sinless sacrifice for our sins.

Peter, in the book of Acts, said that he had never eaten or drunk anything prohibited by Scripture (unclean), which means that he KNEW that what he drank in the Passover meal was not blood. Otherwise, he could not have made that claim.

That the communion service is just another REPRESENTATION of Christ's death fits in very well with other Scriptural teaching, while claiming that the body and blood turn into the actual, literal flesh and blood of Jesus is contrary to Scripture.

A figurative reading of the Last Supper concerning His body and blood is a legitimate reading of the passage.

A literal reading is not indicated because of the contradictions with other passages of Scripture.

391 posted on 12/04/2010 10:28:38 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 379 | View Replies ]


To: metmom

“A literal reading is not indicated because of the contradictions with other passages of Scripture.”

Indeed so. In view of the other figurative descriptions of Jesus, lamb, lion, bread, shepherd, etc. it must be explained why “This is my body” CANNOT mean “This means my body”.


398 posted on 12/04/2010 11:42:44 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 391 | View Replies ]

To: metmom
Notice the prohibition against breaking the bones of the Passover lamb. Jesus not having any bones broken fulfilled that and other prophecy.

Drat!

I was feeling sorry for the Catlicks given how poorly their defenders have participated lately and so as to address their self-acknowledged superiority because they have the authority of Holy Tradition to answer so many pressing problems that I was compiling a list of questions that they could answer without fear of us shooting down their opinions wrapped in papal authority.

Questions like: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Was Jesus a southpaw? Did Mary have a hard delivery (the first time)? Does the Vatican keep in their vaults samples of Jesus' carpentry work? and so many more.

I now have to scratch "Why didn't the Centurion break Jesus' legs when doing so would disqualify Jesus?" from the list because they don't even understand the Passover link.

412 posted on 12/05/2010 6:44:34 AM PST by The Theophilus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 391 | View Replies ]

To: metmom
"Nowhere in Scripture is there a record of Him giving instructions on how to perform a mass."

That's just about as wrong as you can get. I am going to put that down to pure ignorance and not presume that your alleged Catholic background would cause you to know better and therefore be participating in a willful lie.

Does He tell you to read Scripture because everything in the Mass is a collective (mass) scriptural experience? Everything about the Mass is from Scripture. Every action of the priest is from Scripture and the entire structure and order of the Mass is from Scripture and the words spoke by the priest and the congregation are from Scripture. In reality more Scripture is read in one mass than in any Protestant service I've ever attended. It is ignorant, unfair or deceitful to assert that Catholics aren't Bible-based. Let me take you for a walk down memory lane and point out the things you have forgotten or have chosen to ignore:

Greeting:

Priest: In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19)

People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)

Priest: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Cor 13:13)

People: And also with you.

Penitential Rite:

All: I confess to almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. (Jas. 5:16) In my thoughts and in my words, (Rom. 12:16) In what I have done and what I have failed to do; (Jas 3:6) and I ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, all the angel and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. (1 Thess 5:25)

Priest: May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. (1 John 1:9)

People: Amen (1 Chr 16:36)

All: Lord have mercy. (Tb 8:4) Christ have mercy. (1 Tim 1:2) Lord have mercy.

Gloria:

All: Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth. (Luke 2:14) Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father, (Rev 19:6) we worship you, (Rev. 22:9) we give you thanks, (Eph. 5:20) we praise you for your glory. (Rev 7:12) Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father, (2 John 3) Lord God, Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us; (John 1:29) You are seated at the right hand of the Father, receive our prayer. (Rom 8:34) For you alone are the Holy One, (Luke 4:34) You alone are Lord, You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ. (Luke 1:32) with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. (John 14:26)

[The Liturgy of the Word consists of four readings from Scripture: the first is typically from the Old Testament, the second a psalm, followed by a reading from one of the epistles. Finally, the Gospel is proclaimed during which the people stand out of respect for the Word. The chosen readings change daily.]

[A Sermon on the readings follows.] (2 Tim 4:1-2)

Profession of Faith: [the Nicene (or Apostles) Creed]

All: We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, (Gen 14:19) of all that is seen and unseen. (Col 1:16) We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, (Luke 1:35) eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father. (Heb 1:3) Through him all things were made. (John 1:2-3) For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: (John 3:13) by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, (Matt 1:18) and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:16) he suffered, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures. (1 Cor 15:3-4) He ascended into heaven (Luke 24:51) and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Col 3:1) He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead (2 Tim 4:1) and his kingdom will have no end. (Luke 1:33) We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, (Acts 2:17) who proceeds from the Father and the Son. (John 14:16) With the Father and Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. (1 Peter 1:10-11) We believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. (Rom 12:5) We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. (Acts 2:38) We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. (Rom 6:5) Amen

Liturgy of the Eucharist:

[The gifts are brought to the altar. These include the bread and wine and the offering collected from the people.] (Malachi 3:10)

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. (Eccl. 3:13) It will become for us the bread of life. (John 6:35)

People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:35) Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink. (Luke 22:17-18)

People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36)

Priest: Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. (Heb. 12:28)

People: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our sake and the good of all his Church. (Ps 50:23)

Eucharistic Prayers:

Priest: Lift up your hearts.

People: We lift them up to the Lord. (Lam 3:41)

Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord Our God. (Col 3:17)

People: It is right to give him thanks and praise. (Col 1:3)

Preface acclamation:

All: Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might, heaven and earth are full of your glory. (Is 6:3) Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest. (Mark 11:9-10)

Eucharistic prayer:

[There are four of these, based on ancient prayers of the Church. Eucharistic Prayer Two follows as an example:]

Priest: Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness. (2 Macc. 14:36) Let your spirit come upon these gifts (water and wine) to make them holy, so that they may become the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Before he was given up to death, (Phil 2:8) a death he freely accepted, (John 10:17-18) he took bread and gave you thanks. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said: Take this all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you. When supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he gave thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this is memory of me. (Mark 14:22-25) Let us proclaim the mystery of faith.

All: Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life, Lord Jesus, come in glory. (Heb 2:14-15)

Priest: In memory of his death and resurrection, we offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup. (John 6:51) We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you. May all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.10:17) Lord, remember your Church throughout the world; make us grow in love together with our Pope and our bishop, and all the clergy. Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again: bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. (2 Macc 12:45-46) Have mercy on us all; make us worthy to share eternal life with Mary, the virgin Mother of God, with the apostles and with all the saints who have done your will throughout the ages. May we praise you in union with them, and give you glory though your Son, Jesus Christ. (2 Thes 1:4-5) Through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, for ever and ever.

All: Amen. (Rom 11:36)

Communion Rite:

The Lord’s Prayer:

All: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. (Matt 6:9-13)

Priest: Deliver us, Lord, from every evil and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our savior, Jesus Christ. (John 17:15)

All: For the kingdom the power and the glory are yours, now and forever. Amen

Priest: Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles; I leave you peace, my peace I give to you. (John 14:27) Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live forever and ever.

Priest: The peace of the Lord be with you always! (John 20:19)

People: And also with you! [The priest then directs the people to exchange a sign, such as a handshake or a kiss, or a word of God’s peace to one another.]

Breaking of the Bread:

All: Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, grant us peace. (John 1:29)

Communion:

Priest: This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper. (Rev. 19:9)

People: Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed. (Matt 8:8)

[Communion is distributed to the faithful at the altar by the priest and lay ministers.]

Dismissal:

Priest: Blessed be the name of the Lord. Now and forever. (Dan 2:20) May almighty God bless you, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:51) Go in peace (Luke 7:50) to love and serve the Lord. (2 Chr 35:3)

[During the blessing the people make the Sign of the Cross, the traditional sign of the baptized and a public sign of their belief in the power of God.]

People: Thanks be to God. (2 Cor 9:15)

429 posted on 12/05/2010 10:13:33 AM PST by Natural Law
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 391 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson