Are you speaking as a replacement theologian? or against it? I was mostly giving you links on Darby; good in some ways but he wasn't the first with his viewpoints as those links show however the links have other subjects I wasn't all that interested in.
I just don't understand where your debate points are coming from and this is wayyyy off topic on the Amish save that they believed in replacement theology at least in part. I never studied the Amish view points but have studied replacement thrology enugh and as for dispensationalism, I think( possibly) we do agree, at least in Old/new testament views. I'll have to take your sentenses one by one though or I'll probably go on a tangent; I've written before on this site i am not a good debator and when it comes to religious views, well, we will probably walk away all believing what we believe prior to this debate, but here goes:
gads this is going to be a BIT lengthy but I'll try to reign it in a little
Okay, as the other person stated to both of us we can't speak for jews on many topics. i have only just learned of my own Jewish roots in the past 17 years and have been studying in a shul( many differing ones) regarding learning hebrew, and go to Torah stidies( and other classes0 regularly for the past six; prior to that, worked too much and went to study and classes irregularly. I love reading, arguing points and studying with my Jewish friends and learning the ways of Judaism so I generally as a rule put my Christian beliefs away unless there's something worth stating on topic and i can prove or at least see what others in say the Torah study say, how they transliterate and what may or may not be debatable. it's a rough process but they've learned to like, even love me and i them...."oi here comes the Jesus freeako" and I may retort," oy the scribes and pharisees, and myu liberal little Saducees, how's life walking around in the dark?" Now please note,we've known each other and the barbs are taken in stride with laughter, shake of the head and move on.
You said, and asked:
The temple sacrifice of Moses has ended because it was completed by Christ and because the temple was demolished by the pagan Romans as prophesied by Christ. What is the legitimate continuation of the Old Testament religion?
Well i can see why the person, got angry with me as many folks in the jewish world do not enjoy Christian arrogance and our haughty belief we have the one true vision straight from Hashem( for purposes of this debate I will refrain from using "G!D unless written so out of respect of HIS name in which I just love how my fellow Jews have taught me just how reverent HIS name is even they forgot HIS real name. And my do they WIN hands down that debate as we as Christians throw his name around like a cracked ping pong ball in comparison to the awe and wonder, fear and love HIS name is used in study, in services and in life.
For us as Christians( me a Messianic-Jew) we believe, yes, Jesus was the final sacrificial lamb, unblemished as he rode upon an ass as Zecheriah prophecies( according to Matthew(ch 21, [weeps over Jerusalem, Mt 23:37-24:1,2, Luke 13:34,35, a prophecy of Himself, and the destruction of Jerusalem( Mt 24:1,2) 38 years later." O Jerusalem Jerusalem thou that killest the prophets. and stonest them which are sent unto thee how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you,Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is He who cometh in the name of the Lord( Hashem).'"] desolate who was a follower of Jesus, and through being a publican( tax collector) knew shorthand as did all Jewish scribes, and other educated Jews of the day Zech 9:9, to the very day as prophecied in the last chapter of Daniel.I believe the day of His entry was the tenth day of Nisan, the day practising Jews received their lamb for passover and inspected the merchandise so to speak to be certain the lamb chosen was unblemished. Math to this has been verified over and again by Christians and some Jews but again, many Jews refuse to hear or see the significance of this prophecy as not many will even touch the New testament. here is a link to the math:
According to Sir Robert Anderson this edict to rebuild Jerusalem was issued on March 14, 445 BC by Artaxerxes Longimanus of Persia. Exactly 173,880 days later Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. This was the first time Jesus allowed Himself to be publicly proclaimed as the Messiah and King. As you will recall, prior to this Jesus was always saying go and tell no one (about his miracles). He was afraid that the people would believe Him only for His signs/miracles. A week later Jesus was "cut off" or crucified. We know that this happened between 445-444 BC:
This prophesy refers to weeks of years, or 483 biblical years. Beginning with the exact day on which Persian King Artaxerxes gave the decree to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem (March 14, 445), exactly 173,880 days later--Palm Sunday, April 6, 32 A.D. This is the precise number of days spanning 483 biblical years, which were then measured as 12 months of 30 days each.:
Old Testament prophecies were given in old testament years, which had 360 days.
The formula for this is converting Old Testament years into what we are on (solar years-or 365.24 days) is this:
OT prophetic years of 483 times .9857 = 476 solar years Artaxerxes' decree in 444 BC + 476 years would mean the Messiah would be "cut off" in 32 AD, but not later than 34 AD. The rest here about half way down the page
Therefore yes, I do believe in both testaments. As Augustine( I think it was him) said, The old tstament is the new testament concealed, the new testament is the Old Testament( Tanakh) revealed." Not that I believe all or much of Augustine because he was one of the first staing the Bible was allegorical and not always literal. This was a political statement in hopes not to have himself killed, and his words were not "Jewish friendly" in that he applied replacement theology and felt that the church was the new jerusalem. Jews were outdated. He was wrong, horribly wrong in this as we can see to this day and look back and attest to so many murdered Jews and other Christians that diverted from his and others beliefs.
So again your question,"The temple sacrifice of Moses has ended because it was completed by Christ and because the temple was demolished by the pagan Romans as prophesied by Christ. What is the legitimate continuation of the Old Testament religion?
To the Jew, well this was a terrible time. No more temple. I was written i believe in the Talmud the veil to the temple was torn in two but re-sewn to keep the Holy of holies shrouded(Mt 27:51, Mk15:38,Lk23:45, veil torn, by David M Levy Excerpt,"According to the Talmud, the veils were 60 feet long, and 30 feet wide, about the thickness of a man's palm (four inches_, and made of 72 squares that were sown together. The veils were so heavy that it took 300 priests to hang them, according to Jewish tradition. In the talmud:. Talmud (c. AD 70-200): Sanhedrin 43a: "On the eve of Passover they hanged [crucified] Yeshu [Jesus]." - Jewish Source
Last part of question:"What is the legitimate continuation of the Old Testament religion? The new testament, inclusion of that is the continuation of the Book of Acts to this day. There will come a time very soon in which the dispensation of the church is over, and Hashem will deal once again directly through His people and the messiah( Meleckh mesiach) will return for Christians or come for the first time for the jews. This is a serious question both for jews and Christians alike and it is debated continuously. Some rabbi's believe in two in one, there is a Lamb of Hashem, and there is the conquering King of Kings, they are one and the same. Of course most Jews true to the religion call these rabbi's nuts, not all but the majjority. Again as I said to the other poster, I am NOT versed enough to debate fully on many jewish subjects and this one creeates more division than it does find common ground but it's wothwhile to read up and use this in later debates
Another portion of your paragraph full of questions:
The New Testament teaches that Christianity is the sole continuation and that Jewish nonbelievers are cut off. Rabbinical Judaism is based on the post-Messianic Talmud scripture. It teaches that non-Christian Jews are the sole inheritors and rejects Christianity as polytheistic. For 1800 years there was never a doubt among Christians as to their own inheritance until John Darby came along to concede the argument in favor of non-Christian Jewish inheritance.
Whoa there cowboy. Martin Luther also had words about replacement theology as did many. many popes and the revisionist protestant churches that went around using the same false doctrines which again ( i repeat) killed many Jews according to this nasty belief system that is contrary to all either the new old or combined testamnts state. Remember sir, it was maily ALL jews that gave us all scripture except for the chapter nebuchanezzar wrote in Daniel, and Luke's books. We as Christians owe Jews throughout history a debt of gratitude and an apology as the Amish humbly did, May G!G bless them for that.
Dissecting
The New Testament teaches that Christianity is the sole continuation and that Jewish nonbelievers are cut off.
Why? I ask you are not all peoples, Jews also, heathen and pagan cut off as per the new testament? Remember, all Jews followed what was called simply,"The way" and the New testament testifies of these great BOLD Jews that spread the new "mystery" of jesus birn, jesus, died, jesus resurrected. Jesus being the Lamb of Hashem, He being Hashem and He giving the gift of His Spirit( ruach) to all who believe, jew and Gentile alike. True but your sentence is harsh. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of G!D,being justified freely by HIS grace through the redemption that is in Christ jesus: whom Hasem has set forth to be a proptiation through faith in HIS blood to declare HIS righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of Hashem(G!D); to declare I say,at this time HIS righteousness: that he( all of us, Jew and Gentile)might be just and the justifier of him( Jew and gentile alike)which believeth in Jesus( Rom 3:23-26)."
So, yes, but we must al admit the law is just not attainable, all 600 plus laws, and jesus died to roll away, no, rip the veil in two that we might enter in and be partakers of Hasem's glory through the amazing sacrifice of the Son Jesus and His spilt blood for all. ALL And that right there sir is the reason i refute replacement theology and satans division in which he's destroyed any fellowship and most friendships between jew and gentile which was not what Jesus died for. he died to bring all together. One need only read the book of hebrews, tough book that is is to say Jews are NOT obsolete. In fact that was the big meting of jerusalem in which the apostles spelled it out and wrote about it. it was only later with heretics and others that tried bringing back circumcision, the law in parts and thus, throughout history the division became more and more bloody. This was never jesus' words, never G!d's words, but mans words to justify and rationalize the killing and murdering of Jews for one reason or another or no reason at all. The history of the church berating and killing Jews instead of lovingly upholding and helping all through the diaspor makes me want to puke and if it would do any good I too would travel back to eretz israel and apologize for others but I can't they have their own salvation to work out just as you and I do.
Another question from you to me or was this a statement?Rabbinical Judaism is based on the post-Messianic Talmud scripture. It teaches that non-Christian Jews are the sole inheritors and rejects Christianity as polytheistic. For 1800 years there was never a doubt among Christians as to their own inheritance until John Darby came along to concede the argument in favor of non-Christian Jewish inheritance
To an extent yes. BUT I've met a feww rabbi's that do not adhere to the talmud. I will step aside on this as you are stating somethnig and I think the other poster somehow lumped in with you but I never wrote this nor would I ever. I haven't read the Talmud enough. There are not a lot of differences between one form of Judaissm than another but there are significant differences but again, I'm sidestepping this. Another more intelligent person, hopefully a more qualified Jewish believer can explain this more so. In a nutshell, your style of writing is only pissing off Jews. That is not my way. The Talmud has a lot of cool wisdom, stories and such as does the mishnah in which the other poster asked a loaded question, as he asked me if I ever READ the mishnah. Certainly some is written but it has always beeen known by Jew as the oral law, in the Talmud just as is the Gemara. So yes it's written, but be careful how you answer this one. The mishnah has put me to sleep more than once What is the Misnah
Another partial staement from you
For 1800 years there was never a doubt among Christians as to their own inheritance until John Darby came along to concede the argument in favor of non-Christian Jewish inheritance.
Lastly you wrote below:
The term "replacement theology" is an artifice used to disguise the real issues at stake. If Jesus was not the Christ according to prophesy and His own words, that would make Him an impostor and Christianity a misnomer.
Jesus DID tell the truth about Himself and His Gospel is the legitimate continuation of OT religion, not a replacement. The Jewish Apostles clearly lived and died for the belief that Jesus DID come for them. Darby's Dispensationalism trades in this inheritance for a mess of pottage.
I've lost you or maybe I'm tired. there is no inheritance of land for Christian's. We're less than the jew in the diaspora. We are not of this world as jesus said he was not of this world. The only promise of land hashem wrote in HIS WORD are the verses i gave you above. There are more of the same but Jesus never promised Christians a worldly inheritance, except to take up the cross and to follow Him. if we are to truly do that, then we must lovingly conquer, not with swords( save when in war) the hearts of man through HIS WORD via HIS SPIRIT. So, I guess if you mean anything more or less than that then i don't understand you nore the continuous inferences of john darby. I laughingly look at all I've written trying to be honest with you but we have strayed so far from the incredible belessing the Amish did by shunning their way of life, flying to Israel and apologizing to the main rabbbi at the Wall. may hashem bless them for Hashem has said He will bless those who stand by Abraham and his seed, and that's what they've done. if only more churches, more of the body of Christ could show by the Amish incredible humbling example of love to Jews we just might have the stranght and power here on earth to conquer Islam and all the lies of this world. But alas, I fear only Hashem in His return will be able to fix this broken world. Until that time we have been given out marching orders.Mt 28:17-20
*whew* I'm done. Thus endeth the diatribe
I am Catholic. Dispensationalists would consider me a believer in "replacement theology," but I reject the term as begging the question.
I looked at your Dispensationalist links briefly. They confirm that John Darby originated the teaching of the rapture.
What is the legitimate continuation of the Old Testament religion?
Well i can see why the person, got angry with me as many folks in the jewish world do not enjoy Christian arrogance and our haughty belief we have the one true vision straight from Hashem
It is not necessarily haughty to believe in the singularity of truth. There are many questions for which there can only be one right answer. This principle is well understood in fields like carpentry and engineering. In theology it is supposedly intolerant to uphold the singularity of truth. In fact, there can only be one legitimate continuation of the Old Testament religion. Christianity and rabbinical Judaism are mutually exclusive.
I will refrain from using "G!D unless written so out of respect of HIS name in which I just love how my fellow Jews have taught me just how reverent HIS name is even they forgot HIS real name.
I can respect that but I am not wise enough to make distinctions that issue. I will follow the practice of the Fathers and Doctors as I confident their wisdom exceeds mine.
[Augustine]was wrong, horribly wrong in this as we can see to this day and look back and attest to so many murdered Jews and other Christians that diverted from his and others beliefs.
Jews have been more welcomed than any other non-Christian group in virtually every Christian society in history. Religious persecution certainly did occur, but Jews also took part in political and military struggles just like Christians and Muslims. If Jews were on the losing side, they suffered just like anybody else. That is not the same as religious persecution and cannot be blamed on Christian beliefs. Whatever the case, truth is the only valid measure of a doctrine. If that truth is alleged to cause suffering, there needs be some other remedy besides embracing falsehood. Did not Augustine follow along with previously established teaching?
The New Testament teaches that Christianity is the sole continuation and that Jewish nonbelievers are cut off.
Whoa there cowboy. Martin Luther also had words about replacement theology as did many. many popes
All Christianity universally understood that the New Testament taught that Christianity is the sole legitimate continuation of the OT religion. This includes the successors and close associates of the NT writers. It is absurd to second guess these interpretations 1800 years after the fact. I do not want to hurt anybody's feelings, but that is secondary consideration to defending Christian Tradition.
Why? I ask you are not all peoples, Jews also, heathen and pagan cut off as per the new testament?
Gentile pagans were never a part of God's people so there is no occasion for cutting them off.
there is no inheritance of land for Christian's.
The Christian inheritance is eternal life in the Kingdom (of Heaven).
. . . there is no inheritance of land for Christian's. We're less than the Jew in the diaspora. We are not of this world as Jesus said He was not of this world. The only promise of land Hashem wrote in HIS WORD are the verses I gave you above. There are more of the same but Jesus never promised Christians a worldly inheritance, except to take up the cross and to follow Him. if we are to truly do that, then we must lovingly conquer, not with swords( save when in war) the hearts of man through HIS WORD via HIS SPIRIT. So, I guess if you mean anything more or less than that then I don't understand you nor the continuous inferences of John Darby.
imho, Darby is a huge pack of fantasized straw dogs. The garbage about Darby on FR from that perspective is virtually always inaccurate, false, even, seemingly often, a lie from hell.
I laughingly look at all I've written trying to be honest with you but we have strayed so far from the incredible blessing the Amish did by shunning their way of life, flying to Israel and apologizing to the main rabbbi at the Wall. may Hashem bless them for Hashem has said HE will bless those who stand by Abraham and his seed, and that's what they've done.
If only more churches, more of the body of Christ could show by the Amish incredible humbling example of love to Jews we just might have the strenght and power here on earth to conquer Islam and all the lies of this world. But alas, I fear only Hashem in His return will be able to fix this broken world. Until that time we have been given our marching orders.Mt 28:17-20
. . .
Last part of question:"What is the legitimate continuation of the Old Testament religion? The New Testament, inclusion of that is the continuation of the Book of Acts to this day.
There will come a time very soon in which the dispensation of the church is over, and Hashem will deal once again directly through His people and the Messiah( Meleckh Mesiach) will return for Christians or come for the first time for the Jews. This is a serious question both for Jews and Christians alike and it is debated continuously. Some rabbi's believe in two in one, there is a Lamb of Hashem, and there is the conquering King of Kings, they are one and the same. Of course most Jews true to the religion call these Rabbi's nuts, not all but the majority. Again as I said to the other poster, I am NOT versed enough to debate fully on many Jewish subjects and this one creates more division than it does find common ground but it's wothwhile to read up and use this in later debates
Very excellent. I thoroughly agree. Thanks enormously.
Have often pondered this grafted in business in light of ultimate ruling and reigning with Christ.
I would not be at all surprised for some, many Christians to have land given them within the ultimate land of Israel. Whether that would be on the basis of some degree if Jewish DNA or strictly spiritual grafted in assignments, I couldn't guess. I just expect it.
However, I agree that the only PROMISE SPECIFICALLY ARTICULATED ABOUT THE LAND--IS ONLY TO JEWS.
Folks seem to gloss over God's promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that their children shall number as the sands of the sea. The assumption seems to be that THAT 'MERELY' means a lot of kids.
WRONG! That's a low view of God's WORD.
God's WORD--powerful enough to create all that is--is not weak about literal fulfillment to the nth degree.
My image is that ALL CREATION from the subatomic level on up would 'strain'--if it took that--TO FULFILL EVERY PARTICLE OF GOD'S WORD. It would not matter, imho, TO CREATION, per se, whether God 'intended' it as a parable, or not. GOD SAID IT. That would be enough.
Anyway--Jacob's kids--numbering as the sands of the sea. Where ya gonna house em in even the New Jerusalem? Where they gonna work? How many acres would the freeways consume? We gonna have condensed mansions to fit them all in? Nonsense.
ALL CREATION GROANS EAGERLY, EXPECTANTLY, YEARNINGLY, DESPERATELY SEEKING the manifestation of THE SONS OF GOD. imho, That's us. Jewish AND Christian believers at that future time.
RULING AND REIGNING WITH CHRIST.
Over what? This boot camp of a planet?
There's not enough room.
Number as the sands of the sea. THAT'S JUST THE CHIEFS. Doesn't begin to calculate the Indians.
imho, the 'Indians' must number in the incalculable QUADZILLIONS TIMES QUADZILLIONS. . . . OUT THERE . . . somewhere . . . all over . . .
The idea that RULING AND REIGNING WITH CHIRST over this tired old--even renewed old boot camp of a planet IS ALL THERE IS to be . . . is an insult to Christ and to God's Creation.
That kind of God is TOO small.
GOD IS INHERENTLY MORE EXPANSIVE THAN THAT. INHERENTLY.
I don't understand what distinctions will likely remain between us grafted in vs the blood children of Jacob. If the Old Testament pattern of adoption is any clue, there mostly won't be any distinction. We will be accounted as full fledged blood brothers.
Yet, it appears that there's 12 thrones for the Patriarchs and 12 thrones for the Disciples. That IMPLIES some distinction remaining. Perhaps it's more of a ceremonial distinction kind of signifying a spiritual heritage--kind of like the war medals of Admirals.
Paul makes it very very clear--for those with eyes to see and ears to hear--that Gentiles are GRAFTED INl--Johnny come latelys to the party. And, Paul and John make it abundantly clear that at a given point in still future time, before time is lain aside as irrelevant--that the TIMES OF THE GENTILES WILL BE . . . drum roll . . .
Deal with it, Gentiles. That's SCRIPTURE.
From then on, the primary ruling perspective will be from the top--THE JEWISH MESSIAH ON DOWN. Thankfully, we can then also see HIM as our Jewish Father, Lord God, Messiah--as the GRAFTED IN ISRAELITES.
If there's any distinction for us--it would be as Jews-lite not them as Gentiles/Christians-lite.