Posted on 11/05/2010 6:32:25 PM PDT by Colofornian
LDS Prophet Joseph Smith taught that God was once a mortal man:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil,...
It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, ...and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; ...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another,... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, Ch. 14, p. 305-6).
LDS President Brigham Young declared that God was once a finite being:
"It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being" (Deseret News, Nov. 16, 1859, p. 290).
LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that God had a father, a grandfather, etc.:
"Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith taught that God was born as a mortal on some other earth:
"I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions...Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman" (Deseret News, Church News, Sept. 19, 1936, p. 2).
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie taught:
"The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64)
LDS Apostle Melvin Ballard explained that God has a wife:
"For as we have a Father in heaven, so also we have a Mother there, a glorified, exalted, ennobled Mother" (As quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, LDS Church manual, 1976, p. 129).
LDS Doctrine and Covenants promises the faithful LDS couple that they can achieve godhood in the same manner as God the Father:
"...if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity,... they shall [have]...a continuation of the seeds [children] forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting,... Then shall they be gods, because they have all power,... and continuation of the lives,... [endless procreation of spirit children]" (Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:18-22)
LDS President Brigham Young taught that faithful Mormons can achieve godhood:
"Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the Sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligences that dwell in eternity. We are now in the school, and must practice upon what we receive" (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 245).
LDS President Joseph F. Smith said:
"We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when he was passing through this, or a similar ordeal" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 54).
As recently as 2007 both Apostle Boyd K. Packer and Dallen Oakes, during an interview for PBS, explained that God the father has a resurrected body. Apostle Packer stated:
"That vision [Joseph Smith's 1820 vision] taught us some things. We learned about the personality of God the Father, a resurrected Being, as part of our gospel." [link]
Apostle Oakes used the same term when he was interviewed:
"The first revelation received by Joseph Smith was the appearance to him of the Father and the Son embodied, separate, identifiable, tangible Beings who appeared to him in what we refer to as the First Vision. And that first revelation, concerning the nature of God as an embodied, glorified, resurrected Being, challenged the creeds of Christianity. Christianity describes God as a disembodied, incomprehensible, spiritual entity that fills the whole universe, and an indistinguishable Father and Son." [link]
LDS Apostle James E. Talmage taught that God progressed from a mortal to a god:
"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement — a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be'" (Articles of Faith, Ch. 24, p. 430-431).
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What the Bible Says About God
1. ALWAYS GOD - in the past as well as in the future.
"Art thou not from ever-lasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One?" Hab. 1:12
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Mal. 3:6
"...from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psa. 90:2
"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." Num. 23:19
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,...who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever." Rom. 1:22-25
The LDS god started as a finite man and progressed to godhood.
2. ALWAYS HOLY - Both in the past and future.
"...a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deut. 32:4
"I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee." Hos. 11:9
"The Lord is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works." Psa. 145:17
"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5
"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness." Psa. 119:142
The LDS god achieved holiness.
3. ALL KNOWING - Both in the past and in the future.
"Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? ... There is no searching of his understanding." Isa. 40:13, 14, 28
"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." Psa. 147:5
The LDS god had to learn everything.
4. ALL POWERFUL
"The Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Rev. 19:6
"...his eternal power and Godhead." Rom. 1:20
The LDS god attained his power.
5. OMNIPRESENT
"The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; where is the house that ye build unto me: and where is the place of my rest?" Isa. 66:1
"Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord." Jer. 23:23-24
The LDS god can be in only one place at a time.
6. ACTED ALONE IN CREATION
"I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Isa. 44:24
"By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." Psa. 33:6
"Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all." Neh. 9:6
The LDS god cooperated with the Council of Gods to create.
7. NO OTHER GODS
"I am he; before me there was no God formed neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Isa. 43:10-11
"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God....is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isa. 44:6 & 8
"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." Isa. 46:5 & 9
"I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another." Isa. 42:8
The LDS God has a father and mother, grandparents, brothers and sisters, etc.
For a more in-depth discussion of the LDS view of God and man:
Mormonism and the Threefold Problem of Progression: Examining the LDS Doctrine of Eternal Progression in Light of the Bible, Philosophy, and Science
I meant the other poster. Sorry didn’t mean you!
The Pharisees lved God in Jesus's day, with a zeal unmatched even by devout Mormons! But they were wrong and on the highway to Hell. You attempt to gray the meaning so a twisted perspective has room to fester. Satan uses that technique. But the Bible gives its own true meaning into the seeking heart, so let’s read what the Gospel of John has to show us. Pay attention to what the witnesses, the 'God loving' Jews to whom Jesus spoke, say He was doing in their eyes and ears ... I've underlined it for you:
John 10: 24-30 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.I and my Father are one.Verse 31: Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Verses 32 - 33 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Verses 36 - 38 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Verse 39: Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand
Read then the first fourteen verses of chapter eleven: Because God the Father Almighty was/is/ever shall be in Jesus as a glorified man, He could calls Lazarus’s state of being dead in the body merely being asleep [see I Thess 4 for Paul‘s use of the same meaning]. Jesus said He and The Father are One, not two in common purpose but ONE, as in The Same Being. And He worked the works God in Him showed Him to do for the Glory of God by the Glory of God in The Son. [God’s perspective of time is not linear, Jesus as God in a man walked among us having made Himself a little lower than the angels: Hebrews 2:7 - 9] This dual state of being in God The Father Almighty and God The Father Almighty being in Him is possible only by the work of the Holy Spirit OF GOD. God raises the dead, as shown in passages in the Tanahk. Jesus proclaimed to the Pharisees that He IS God with them; the eleventh chapter confirms God with us
The Gospel of John shows us regarding God and Jesus as ONE by the presence/power of The Holy Spirit of God. The Pharisees questioning Jesus understood that ‘The Christ‘ would be God with them, so they demanded of Him that He tell them striaght, was He The Christ? These were god-loving men and they were standing before God damned in/by their doubting.
I can see the headlines:
HARRY REID'S UNION JANITOR THUGS BUST MORMON BISHOP ON LAS VEGAS STRIP
Heraclitus would be confused and is this great man condemned to Hell over it?
Try here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos
or here: http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/theogloss/logos-body.html
Logos means “reason” or that which relates/communicates, in the sense of collecting one’s thoughts.
Log”os (?), n. [NL., fr. Gr. the word or form which expresses a thought, also, the thought, fr. to speak.]
During the time John was writing his gospel Logos was the common way of referring to God’s [Heavenly Father’s] revelation of Himself. Philo’s philosophy, contemporary with John, was so popular and compelling that it was getting more attention than the message of Jesus Christ. Greek philosophy and the scholarly world were using the term Logos to indicate the revelation of the “unknown God”, so John used the term as the perfect opportunity to present the truth Jesus Christ taught.
John 1:1 establishes this: “In the beginning was the Word” (Logos or reason of God). Without any apology John states bluntly in effect: This Logos that people are referring to is a person. He is a specific person, and I am going to identify Him for you. He is none other than Jesus, the anointed one, the Christ of God.
See here: http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/3056.htm
and here: http://biblos.com/john/1-1.htm
Here’s the NIV version for clarity:
New International Version
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
Here’s an alternative reading:
1In the beginning was the [embodying idea or thought], and the [Divine Expression - Jesus Christ] was with God, and the [Divine Expression - Jesus Christ] was God. 2He [Jesus Christ] was with God in the beginning.
You’ll note that in either translation you have a confusing jumble, particularly with the latter, if you are trying to force monotheism into the text.
In the English translation above of John 1:1-2 (you need both to complete the thought) you have four uses of the word was.
1. In the beginning was the Word (here it was means to be as in to exist)
2. and the Word was with God (here to be is joined to the word “with” which is critical. The Greek for with is pro and in this case denotes physical proximity as in being together. So Jesus is with God in the second clause)
3. and the Word was God (here’s where the English translation breaks down. We assume that this God is the same God noted in the 2nd clause because we’ve been trained to accept and believe that the Bible enforces monotheism, but that is not the case. The use of the word “was” in this clause means “is” or “to be”. It is an attestation that Jesus Christ is Divine from the beginning, despite his apparent humanity.
That’s very important in John’s argument against Philo and the Jews, Romans and other pagans. Heraclitus argued this point and he is the origin of the word Logos.
“This universe, which is the same for all, has not been made by any god or man, but it always has been, is, and will be an ever-living fire, kindling itself by regular measures and going out by regular measures.” - Heraclitus
From Wikipedia: Heraclitus of Ephesus (c.535 BC - 475 BC) was a Greek philosopher, known for his doctrine of change being central to the universe, and for establishing the term in Western philosophy as meaning both the source and fundamental order of the Cosmos.
So Heraclitus and other Greek philosophers (Greek philosophy like a belief in evolution was the dominant thought during John’s time & even is today. Not accepting or believing in its fundamental tenants marked you as unlearned, provincial and ignorant) argued that Logos was this source and order of the Cosmos.
John is simply brilliant in using the same/similar concept to introduce Jesus Christ.
Here is the fourth use of “was”:
4. 2He [Jesus Christ] was with God in the beginning.
He has the meaning of “this same thing” in Greek. Again you have the combination “was with” to clarify that John is talking about two different persons. Here’s John’s establishing argument in 1:1-2 clause by clause:
1. God’s thought existed from the beginning and is the establishing power/source of the universe. (This jives with Philo and Heraclitus and Greek philosophy in general - so far so good. You start with the known/accepted and then move on to the new/unknown/unaccepted.)
2. The Divine Expression (Jesus) was with God.
3. Jesus Christ is both a God and the expression of God’s thought. (establishing an equivalency - that is what Jesus says and does is what God would say and do or does say and do)
4. The Divine Expression (Jesus) was with God. (This closes the argument and John moves on from here having captured the interest of Greek thinkers).
http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1520.htm
Check here: http://biblos.com/john/10-30.htm
This is particularly pertinent for this group:
http://biblos.com/john/10-33.htm
But this is the final straw:
New Living Translation (©2007) But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."
Study the Greek here: http://biblos.com/john/10-38.htm
The Greek word ἐν translated above as "in" makes more sense as "with" see here: http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1722.htm
It makes more sense in the context that Jesus is using this way:
But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is [with] me, and I am [with] the Father."
Jesus clearly distinguishes between himself and his father and so should we...unless you absolutely must believe in the Trinity.
Then just ignore it and go on with life.
You keep trying to redirect the focus to the Trinity. The issue is ONEness, Jesus IS God with us by the power and personal work of God’s Holy Spirit. Take your ‘last straw’ and use it on your silly strawman misdirection. READ the Bible with a seeking heart and God’s Holy Spirit conveys His meaning without the smoke and mirrors you’re trying so desperately to generate.
The truth is hard, I know. I love searching the scriptures and learning.
Have a great Sunday and a great week, FRiend.
For understanding this subject it may be pertinent to remember that Jesus was truly man and truly God. John saw the resurrected truly man part of God standing next to the Father. The resurrected side Jesus is the man side of His nature.
Another new temple? I guess the money keeps pouring in, hand over fist.
It is the hallmark of scripture twisting when such foolishness is on parade. Can I make you my 'right-hand man'? If I give you directions that 'the hammer is over on the right-hand of the tool box' does the tool box have right and left hands to grasp with? The same 'teachers' who try to misdirect so their twisted interpretations have room to fester will vacillate from two physical body beings as godhead members to a myriad of gods in ages past to God alone can save one from eternal damnation, and then to work your way to worthiness so God can apply His Grace to you in some future event of salvation. The Bible is clear that it is God in you The Hope of Salvation. It is God in you delivering from the wiles of the evil one. Without His Spirit in you, you are none of His for He never knew you! That is the message Jesus taught and Paul amplified and James affirmed and Peter stood by (perhaps I could mean physically stood next to something, if I was one of those twisting 'teachers' ping ponging back and forth from literal interpretation to figurative meaning).
The issue is 'how can it be that the God Who created the Universe and is thus greater than it can be a man and walk among us'? It is by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit of that same God Who creates that such a thing can be. And that makes it miraculous, which ticks off some who want to bottle God for their own purposes.
Once inside we'll see a new approach to sunrise services and a different point of view as to what religion should be.
Stunt Mormon strikes again...
Stunt Mormon strikes again...
Hence the Holy Trinity must be destroyed at all costs.
The Bible is clear there is only once God, very clear. From Genesis through the New Testament.
Hence the Holy Trinity must be destroyed at all costs.
The Bible is clear there is only once God, very clear. From Genesis through the New Testament.
Now THAT’S a revelation worth seeing....
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