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LDS man charged with arson in church fires
Salt Lake Tribune ^ | Nov. 5, 2010 | Jason Bergreen

Posted on 11/05/2010 1:04:52 PM PDT by Colofornian

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To: Colofornian
An LDS church member who claims the Mormon church lied to him

I wonder if he would have preferred to have been referred to as an "ex-LDS church member", or if his beef was with something those two church groups specifically had said to him.

Normally when someone publicly accuses a church of lying, and takes action against that church, especially if it was a violent action, we would call them "ex-members".

21 posted on 11/05/2010 2:41:03 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: colorcountry

They did and do to all that will listen.

This in NO way makes the arsons he committed any less of a crime.


22 posted on 11/05/2010 2:42:15 PM PDT by Bidimus1
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To: Paragon Defender
There’s an anti-Mormon group of people here that spends a great deal of their time attacking the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They post regurgitated propaganda on an almost daily basis. They have an obsession. You can witness many different tactics employed that you might find quite interesting. The strawman argument is a big favorite and is frequently preceded by cherry-picked quotes or other material. After the “quotation” the attacker will misrepresent what has been said or what was meant and then attack their own interpretation.

yeah sure

Link

As of December 31, 2009, there were 51,736 LDS missionaries serving in 344 church missions throughout the world. Their work, often in cooperation with local members, resulted in 280,106 convert baptisms in 2009.[12] Author David Stewart points out that the number of convert baptisms per missionary per year has fallen from a high of 8.03 in 1989 to just 4.67 in 2005.[13] He argues that the number of converts would increase if Mormon missionaries made greater efforts in meeting new people; he points out that the average companionship spends only four or five hours per week attempting to meet new people.[13]

How terrible it is that a handful of Christians post a handful of threads per week on FreeRepublic to counter the proselytizing efforts of the missionaries and public relations campaign of the mormon church. Don't you just feel SO sorry that the poor, persecuted mormons aren't able to have their message heard?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJqhFm2Zpck


23 posted on 11/05/2010 2:42:55 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: MissesBush

Did it ever occur to you that spending two years of your life under the following circumstances and THEN finding out the whole thing is a HORRIBLE LIE might, just MIGHT drive you to do something irrational?

The Rules

1. Learn and obey all missionary rules.

2. Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.

3. Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.

4. Don’t debate or argue.

5. Center your mind on your mission.

6. Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.

7. Cut your hair regularly.

8. Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.

9. Be neat and clean.

10. Bathe frequently.

11. Use deodorant.

12. Polish your shoes.

13. Iron your shirt and business suit.

14. Arise at 6:30 A.M.

15. Study for 2 hours every morning.

16. Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.

17. Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.

18. Exercise regularly.

19. Write in your journal regularly.

20. Follow the “Missionary Gospel Study Program” (31157) for your personal study.

21. Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.

22. Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.

23. Attend the general session of Stake Conference.

24. Attend general conference broadcasts if available.

25. Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.

26. Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you’ll find people home.

27. End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.

28. Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.

29. Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.

30. Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.

31. Write to your parents every week on preparation day.

32. Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.

33. Don’t communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.

34. Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.

35. Stay with your companion during all activities.

36. Do not go on road trips.

37. Do not leave your assigned area without permission (”District leaders must approve travel outside your area within the district; zone leaders must approve travel outside your district within the zone; and the mission president must approve travel outside the zone.”)

38. Do not watch television.

39. Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.

40. Do not listen to the radio.

41. Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.

42. Do not participate in musical groups.

43. Do not participate in athletic teams.

44. Do not sponsor athletic teams.

45. Do not engage in contact sports.

46. Do not engage in water sports.

47. Do not engage in winter sports.

48. Do not engage in motorcycling.

49. Do not engage in horseback riding.

50. Do not engage in mountain climbing.

51. Do not embark on a private boat.

52. Do not embark in a private airplane.

53. Do not handle firearms.

54. Do not handle explosives.

55. Do not swim.

56. Do not play full court basketball.

57. Do not play basketball in leagues.

58. Do not play basketball in tournaments.

59. You may play half-court basketball.

60. Never be alone.

61. Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is “having difficulties”.

62. Be loyal to your companion.

63. Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.

64. Pray with your companion every day.

65. Study with your companion every day.

66. Plan your work with your companion every day.

67. Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.

68. Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.

69. Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.

70. Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.

71. Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.

72. Do not arise before your companion.

73. Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)

74. Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.

75. Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.

76. Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don’t mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).

77. Do not flirt.

78. Do not date.

79. Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.

80. Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.

81. Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.

82. Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.

83. Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.

84. Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.

85. Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.

86. Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.

87. Do not counsel or give medical treatment.

88. Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.

89. Only write letters to family members and friends at home.

90. Do not telephone parents (in some areas, the mission president will make an exception to this rule and will allow 2 phone calls per year: one on Christmas and one on Mother’s day. But the actual rule in the handbook does not give any exceptions. In my mission, the mission president affirmed that the rule in the handbook is unambiguous: Don’t telephone your parents, no exceptions).

91. Do not telephone relatives.

92. Do not telephone friends.

93. Do not telephone girlfriends.

94. Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.

95. Take problems and questions to your mission president.

96. Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president (There are no checks, balances, or appeals when it comes to the authority of the mission president).

97. Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert (I have to wonder, isn’t it intrinsically disrespectful to their customs and traditions when your purpose for engaging them is to convert them from their customs and traditions and to yours?)

98. Obey all mission rules.

99. Obey the laws of the land.

100. Do not get involved in politics.

101. Do not get involved in commercial activities.

102. Do not give any information about the area.

103. Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.

104. Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.

105. Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.

106. Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.

107. Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)

108. Be courteous.

109. Provide community service.

110. Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.

111. Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.

112. Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.

113. Your mission president must approve your housing.

114. Keep your housing unit clean.

115. Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.

116. Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.

117. Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.

118. You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.

119. Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.

120. Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators. (I wonder if this is because prayer and fasting doesn’t cause strangers to convert and consequently proves to be a faith-demoting experience).

121. Maintain your health.

122. Eat a healthy diet.

123. Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.

124. Follow the approved exercise program.

125. Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.

126. Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.

127. Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.

128. Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.

129. Be immunized.

130. Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.

131. Budget your money carefully.

132. Keep a record of what you spend.

133. Do not spend more than your companion.

134. Do not loan money.

135. Do not borrow money.

136. Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.

137. Pay your bills before leaving an area.

138. Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.

139. Do not waste money on souvenirs.

140. Do not waste money on unnecessary items.

141. Be a frugal photographer.

142. Do not accumulate excess baggage.

143. Obey custom laws and regulations.

144. Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.

145. Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.

146. Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.

147. Do not drive without a license.

148. Drive only Church-owned vehicles.

149. Do not drive members’ cars.

150. Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.

151. Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars. (A few investigators have asked me why the missionaries are reluctant to offer them a ride to church. The answer: giving rides is against the rules).

152. Use cars only on approved mission business.

153. Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.

154. Be conscious of safety at all times.

155. Drive defensively.

156. Wear your seat belt.

157. Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.

158. If your companion is driving, assist him or her.

159. Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.

160. Know bicycle safety rules.

161. Use extreme caution on your bicycle.

162. Do not ride your bicycle after dark.

163. Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.

164. Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
165. Go directly to your new area when transferred.

166. Find your new companion without delay when transferred.

167. Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.


24 posted on 11/05/2010 2:47:12 PM PDT by colorcountry ("The power of facts is much greater than the power of argument.")
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To: Paragon Defender
 
 
"What are the facts?

Again and again and again - what are the facts?

Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what 'the stars foretell,' avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable 'verdict of history' - what are the facts, and to how many decimal places?

You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your only clue.
Get the facts!"

-- Lazarus Long

25 posted on 11/05/2010 2:50:04 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Bidimus1

Never said anything about this young man and his crime. I was defending freepers from allegations of “bashing.”


26 posted on 11/05/2010 2:51:29 PM PDT by colorcountry ("The power of facts is much greater than the power of argument.")
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To: Colofornian
An LDS church member who claims the Mormon church lied to him

DUH!!

According to the BIBLE; the entire LDS Religious Organization is BUILT on lies!

27 posted on 11/05/2010 2:52:31 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry

Oh get real. 10s of thousands of missionaries go out each year and live by these rules. I did. None of them end up snapping and trying to burn down buildings. So I’m not sure how one person, who may not have ever even served a mission, is evidence of rules somehow causing people to go nuts. For the most part those rules are common sense guidelines you really don’t even think that much about as you go about your day to day. And they make for an orderly missionary program that insures safety and as trouble-free an experience as possible. Ask anyone who’s served a mission, and I’m sure most will say it was an amazing experience of growth, service and spiritual communion unlike most any other in one’s life. If mission rules were such an issue, you’d have 10s of thousands losing it each year not one unhinged individual.


28 posted on 11/05/2010 3:08:25 PM PDT by MissesBush (Stay angry--right through November)
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To: MissesBush

http://www.lds4u.com/Missionaries/rules.htm

As you think about these rules, it is worth also considering psychologist Steven Hassan’s BITE model. Hassan asserts that if a group passes a certain threshold of manipulating its members behaviors, thoughts, emotions, and access to information, the group is rightly categorized as a cult and is exercising destructive mind control. You can read about his model here. You may decide for yourself if such manipulation exists, if it is harmful, and whether or not the Mormon missionary experience is a good example of this phenomenon. Here is a like that brings the BITE model to bear on the Mormon missionary program.

As you read these rules you will likely get the impression that being a missionary isn’t a pleasant thing to be. If you do get that impression, you are right. So if you have the chance to interact with them, be nice to the poor souls.

Have a nice day sweetheart. :)


29 posted on 11/05/2010 3:10:23 PM PDT by colorcountry ("The power of facts is much greater than the power of argument.")
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To: kbennkc

Well, I’m sure no Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic or Zoroastrian has ever committed arson.

/s


30 posted on 11/05/2010 3:13:08 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: colorcountry

Do not
Do not
Do not.

No wonder the son of some Mormon aquaintances was trained to keep missionaries from committing suicide.


31 posted on 11/05/2010 3:15:56 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I visited GEN TOMMY FRANKS Military Museum in HOBART, OKLAHOMA! Well worth it!)
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To: Colofornian

“An LDS church member who claims the Mormon church lied to him was charged Thursday with aggravated arson for allegedly setting fire to two LDS meetinghouses last week. “

I don’t get it.

The LDS church lies to ALL its members. Every day. It is built on the concept of lies. Lies about God being an exalted man, about millions of gods, about becoming a god, about who Christ is, about it’s own history, about the Bible, about its temple rituals, and heck, it even teaches its missionaries HOW to lie. It is a lying culture, fostered by a history of lying from its founder, the vile Smith.

You don’t see them all burning down the LDS buildings.


32 posted on 11/05/2010 3:16:50 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Good point AMPU.


33 posted on 11/05/2010 3:27:23 PM PDT by colorcountry ("The power of facts is much greater than the power of argument.")
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To: MissesBush; colorcountry
So I’m not sure how one person, who may not have ever even served a mission, is evidence of rules somehow causing people to go nuts.

KUTV: Ehat is a member of the LDS church, attended BYU, and even served a 2-year mission in Brazil. A friend of the family is surprised at the allegations.
Source: Suspected LDS Church Arsonist Arrested

34 posted on 11/05/2010 3:30:13 PM PDT by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: Colofornian

There are some on the web saying that if he was excommunicated then his education at BYU is also in jeopardy. His degree can be/will be withheld.

I feel very sorry for all involved in this horrible circumstance.


35 posted on 11/05/2010 3:32:20 PM PDT by colorcountry ("The power of facts is much greater than the power of argument.")
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36 posted on 11/05/2010 3:32:39 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Mount Carmel Utah, Maynard Dixon Country)
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To: Utah Binger

HA! You made me LOL!


37 posted on 11/05/2010 3:35:44 PM PDT by colorcountry ("The power of facts is much greater than the power of argument.")
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To: colorcountry; MissesBush; All
Rule #72: 72. Do not arise before your companion.

(one lds missionary to the other, "We will now rise in unison like robotic clones...1...2...3!")

Rule # 60 Never be alone.

(Evidentiary item #1 as to how controlling the Lds church can be: "Don't be alone. Ever. For two years straight! You can't even go to the bathroom alone!")

Rule # 75 Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.

("But missionary president. Honest. I was trying to obey Rule #60 perfectly when my missionary companion stepped out for a few moments...and she was the only one around...and so I had this huge moral dilemma...Do I obey rule #60 or rule #75????")

Rule #41: Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.

(Evidentiary item #2 as to how controlling the Lds church is!)

Rule # 133 Do not spend more than your companion.

Ya know, if you give 9.95% of your income to the Mormon church, you have broken the law of consecration by not tithing and are ineligible for temple access. By .05% you can...miss your daughter's wedding and be kept out of God's presence forever! (Not to mention flunk becoming a full-grown god!)

Well, likewise here, what happens if you spend five cents more than your companion? Haven't you just broken rule #133? And isn't this a rule bound to be broken? So, rather than tempt their Lds missionaries into breaking #133 whenever they buy something, why don't they just make a new rule to ensure it doesn't get broken. Change rule #133 to: "Buy identical items in the same quantity." (Simple, eh?)

Rule 109. Provide community service.

Rule 111: Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.

Likewise, if you obey Rule 109, but go 3 minutes over rule 111, you have just obeyed rule 109, but simultaneously have disobeyed rule 111! (Boy, a legalistic minefield!)

38 posted on 11/05/2010 3:54:01 PM PDT by Colofornian ("So how do LDS deal with the [Adam-God] phenomenon? WE DON'T; WE SIMPLY SET IT ASIDE" - BYU prof)
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To: Utah Binger

Which one of the Danites let you copy their certificate? I bet it was the one with the disability. You know, the one who has that handicap of not being able to tell the truth from a lie. You know, the one that doesn’t believe in logic and bets their eternal soul on feelings. That one...or two, or three, or six dozen.


39 posted on 11/05/2010 3:56:19 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: Colofornian

damned if you do, damned if you don’t....

...and without faith in Jesus Christ for the atonement of our sins, we all share the same fate? ;)


40 posted on 11/05/2010 4:04:02 PM PDT by colorcountry ("The power of facts is much greater than the power of argument.")
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