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To: NYer

“1. Extrinsic Justification”

I cannot speak for Calvinists, but most Baptists argue that justification is the name given to the first step of sanctification. It occurs when we are born again, made a new creation in Christ. One cannot be justified separate from sanctification, because sanctification is the name given to the new creature learning new ways of living.

If you are not born again, you are neither justified nor beginning sanctification. You are dead in your sin.

“God treats man as if he were just or righteous, imputing to man the righteousness of Christ, rather than imparting it to him.”

Accurate enough, but most fail to understand it because we live in nation states, and don’t understand tribal justice. Tribal justice (and the Jews were a tribal people) isn’t an accounting system. It is more concerned with reconciling potential enemies than if the pluses outweigh the negatives.

Tribal justice can say the entire tribe sins in the act of one man, or is made well in one man’s acts. In Iraq, some acts can allow another tribe to kill a person of the offending tribe for up to 7 generations - in my case, that would involve an ancestor born in the mid-1700s.

Guilt and atonement are both individual and corporate. Another person’s acts can make you vulnerable to punishment, and another person can bring reconciliation for you by his acts.

FWIW, I think tribal justice would be a fruitful study for any serious theologian. Based on Romans 5, it seems God judges more in line with tribal thinking than nation-state thinking.

“Repudiation of the Church’s authority and Tradition simply doesn’t follow from the premise of Scripture’s supremacy as the inspired Word of God. Furthermore, the Tradition and authority of the Church are required to determine the canon of the Bible.”

No, Sola Scriptura doesn’t repudiate church authority, but it does require church teaching to align with scripture. As long as millions see a disconnect between scripture and the Catholic Church, there will be Protestants. Innovations such as Mary as Queen of Heaven, Papal Supremacy, Purgatory etc leave many of us unable to accept the idea that there isn’t a conflict between Catholicism and scripture.

Nor does scripture need the authority of the Catholic Church. The authority of the Catholic Church extends only inside the Catholic Church. Protestants, for example, reject the Apocrypha as scripture - so what will the Catholic Church do? Excommunicate us?

The idea that the Catholic Church approves the breath of God is silly. God exists. He speaks or does not. He creates scripture - God breathed - or not. And no Church can tell anyone outside it what is or is not scripture.


20 posted on 11/01/2010 4:55:43 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (When an ass brays, don't reply)
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To: Mr Rogers
Nor does scripture need the authority of the Catholic Church.

No, that's correct.

But it doesn't mean what you think it does.

If a scripture falls in the forest, but there is no one to hear it, what sound does it make?

Chew on that, grasshopper.

The Catholic Church heard it, recorded it, and proclaimed it.

Without the hearing, the recording, and the proclaiming, scripture could exist - in that sense, and that sense only, it does not "need" the authority of the Church.

But to exist for man - THAT did require the Church, without which Wycliffe and Hus, and the Companies of Translators, would have never known of its existence.

21 posted on 11/01/2010 5:03:42 PM PDT by Jim Noble (It's the tyranny, stupid!)
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