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To: Kolokotronis; stfassisi; kosta50; MarkBsnr; boatbums; maryz; metmom
What possible sovereignty can mankind have that does not have its origins in Him?

Man can have total sovereignty over his own salvation if the belief is that God delegated His own sovereignty away from Himself. If God actually made that transfer, the sovereignty then belongs to man, not God.

Well, if God created us, as we are told, in His image and likeness, we would be endowed with the divine attribute of Free Will, would we not?

I don't think it is comparable. I would say that only God's will is truly free. Our free will is completely subjugated to His free will. Whenever different, His will overrides ours every time. That's what Jesus prayed for.

The Church has always taught that mankind was created having the potential to become like God. That potential was lost in the Fall and restored by the Incarnation. But I would like to hear why you think God created mankind. Did He create some for theosis and some for damnation and if so, why?

The standard general answer for why God created man is for His good pleasure, as in:

Rev. 4:11 : “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

We know God had no need for man, and that He wasn't "lonely" or anything like that. We can only say that it pleased Him to create us and establish a relationship with us in worship and prayer. He wishes to be our God and for us to be His people.

In this light I would say that God created no one FOR THE PURPOSE of reprobating them. He created all of us for the same purpose, and part of His good pleasure is evidently that some will be with Him in eternal life and some will not. Ultimately, the creation of every person will bring glory to God, but that will manifest itself in very different ways.


6,139 posted on 12/29/2010 12:31:16 AM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; kosta50; MarkBsnr; boatbums; maryz; metmom
Our free will is completely subjugated to His free will. Whenever different, His will overrides ours every time.

According to this, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao and every mass murderer was doing the will of God since their wills are "completely subjugated to His free will" as you are saying.

6,141 posted on 12/29/2010 4:27:42 AM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; stfassisi; MarkBsnr; boatbums; maryz; metmom
Man can have total sovereignty over his own salvation if the belief is that God delegated His own sovereignty away from Himself

That's not what Kolo said. He said man's sovereignty has its origin in God. St. Paul says so much when he urges that everyone obey all earthly authority, because all authority is (i.e. originates) from God (and is delegated to appointed rulers and princes).

Deuteronomy 30:14 states that we can do what is necessary to be saved (although Paul chooses to misquote it in Romans 10:8).

Jesus tells different people, not just his disciples, what they must do to be saved, to enter the kingdom of heaven, to be with him in the next world, etc. Yes, he also says you must believe, but you also must do certain things (which almost no one does) in order to go through that narrow gate.

I don't think it is comparable. I would say that only God's will is truly free

Good for you, for there are many a Protestant who says that God had [sic] to become man! I am sure you'd agree with them on such "core beliefs". :)

Our free will is completely subjugated to His free will

Does that include Satan's will as well? Is Satan merely doing God's will?

Whenever different, His will overrides ours every time

So, then, we are to give praise and thanks to God for every Holocaust-like event because it was his will??? You've got to be kidding, FK! How many other Protestants share this "core belief" of yours?

God created no one FOR THE PURPOSE of reprobating them. He created all of us for the same purpose, and part of His good pleasure is evidently that some will be with Him in eternal life and some will not.

And those who will not are those who did not have faith (because he didn't give it to them specifically so that they may be "lost"!) and for that they will spend eternity in hell, punished for sins they had to commit, all for the pleasure and glory of this God!

Ultimately, the creation of every person will bring glory to God, but that will manifest itself in very different ways.

And since all do his will (because, remember, he overrides theirs if it is different form his), some are destined to do evil and some are destined to do good; no matter how you turn it around it is still God's doing (or overriding), FK, be it good or evil. Is this another Protestant "core belief"?

6,149 posted on 12/29/2010 7:49:58 AM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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