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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi; OLD REGGIE; boatbums
http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/pap_spirit.html

Thanks for the article, I read most of it and like much of it.

"For it would have been possible for Christ to do everything that the Holy Spirit was to carry out. But this is the reason why the Holy Spirit proceeds to miraculous deeds, so that we may learn of His importance. Similarly, the Father could have created all beings, but the Son does this so that we may learn of his power. It is for the same reason that the Holy Spirit undertakes such activity... For the Father is capable of doing all things, as is the Son and the Holy Spirit. (emphasis added) ......

This is the kind of co-equalness I can readily identify with. However, this does not seem to match my interpretation of what Kosta was saying about "causes".

"Is the Spirit greater than you (the Son) because that which could not be borne by the disciples he now prepares us to bear? Is his energy greater and more perfect? No, I am not saying this. For he will declare 'what is mine.' This is why it is said: 'For he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak...' But because he said, 'He will teach and remind you . . .' and that 'he will guide you into all the truth,' he also said, 'He will take what is mine and declare it to you,' so that you will not assume that the Spirit is greater. This means that whatever I (Christ) have said to you, he (the Spirit) will also say to you . . . nothing contrary, except the same things that I have said. And as the Son said, 'I do not speak on my behalf,' meaning that he does not say anything that is his alone and does not come from the Father, so also with the Holy Spirit. The expression, 'He will take what is mine and declare it to you,' as far as I know, has to do with the knowledge of the Son. For the knowledge of the Son and of the Spirit is one and the same ...

This is another good example. None is greater than the others. I really didn't see anything in this article portraying the Father as either "greater" or even a first among equals in the general sense. That is, some see the Pope as a first among equals in a general sense. I didn't see Chrysostom making a similar case for the Father. But that IS the case I thought Kosta was making with "causes".

5,676 posted on 12/21/2010 2:02:05 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi; OLD REGGIE; boatbums
However, this does not seem to match my interpretation of what Kosta was saying about "causes".
 
Writing on the difference between the Christian East and West, J. S. Romanides summarizes this very well [my emphasis]
Everyone at the Second Ecumenical Synod knew well that this question was settled once and for all by the use in the Creed of the word procession as meaning the manner of existence of the Holy Spirit from the Father which constitutes His special individuality. Thus, the Father is unbegotten, i.e. derives His existence from no one. The Son is from the Father by generation. The Holy Spirit is from the Father, not by generation, but by procession. The Father is cause, the Son and the Spirit are caused.
The key term here is existence. The Spirit needs the Father in order to exist, and so does the Son. The Father needs neither.
 
+Gregory of Palamas says "as regards his existence, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father." (Philokalia IV), and +John of Damascus states "The Holy Spirit is of God the Father, since It [sic] proceeds from Him. It is also called 'of the Son' as it is manifested through Him and takes part in creation, but It does not gain its existence from Him." [Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book One, ]
 
As Lutherans and Orthodox we confess together faith in "the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life." Like the Son, the Holy Spirit receives his existence from the Father, though the Spirit "proceeds from the Father," while the Son is "begotten" of the Father. Like the Son, he receives from the Father the Father’s own divine nature, and so he is one in essence with the Father and the Son
I am not sure what is there to not understand. The orthodox faith has since the Second Ecumenical Council officially believed that God the Father is without a cause, unbegotten of anything, and not dependent on anything for his existence, whereas the Son and the Spirit are caused by the Father and exist because of him, whereas he does not exist because of them. The Father is sui generis, hence the monarchy of the Father.

I really didn't see anything in this article portraying the Father as either "greater" or even a first among equals in the general sense

Again, FK, the Bible clearly quotes Jesus as saying "the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

The Greek word used (μειζων) is one of those Greek words with a pageful of meaning, generally translated as either greater or elder, in terms of excellence. There is simply no way around this verse.


5,677 posted on 12/21/2010 4:50:35 PM PST by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; kosta50; MarkBsnr; metmom; stfassisi; OLD REGGIE
Just had another thought on this, maybe God used the terms Father and Son and Spirit, not necessarily as a literal relationship indicating hierarchy, but so that he could relate to people on familiar terms. For example, He speaks of various emotions that we would call human emotions and when some say God exhibits those emotions, they are criticized as being anthropomorphic. What if God, who is far greater than anything we could imagine, used those terms so that we might have an inkling of what he was talking about yet we should not understand them as literal?
5,737 posted on 12/22/2010 9:22:24 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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