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To: boatbums; blue-duncan
The word "catholic" simply means universal so that usage by definition would be correct

That "simply universal" dates to the times of Reformation when the sectants decided to keep mouthing the Creed while "protesting" against it. Catholic means one sharing the fullness of Roman Catholic faith without dogmatic difference whatsoever, yet retaining if they wish a local praxis such as liturgy. The term was used in St. Ignatius of Antioch in early 2c to mark the difference between the churches united in their belief in the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist and obedience to the local bishop, -- these are Catholic -- and their opposite various heretical sects. The Orthodox in that sense are Catholic; The Protestants are not.

Chapter 4. Beware of these heretics

I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that you also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this. But if these things were done by our Lord only in appearance, then am I also only in appearance bound. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact,] he who is near to the sword is near to God; he that is among the wild beasts is in company with God; provided only he be so in the name of Jesus Christ. I undergo all these things that I may suffer together with Him, Romans 8:17 He who became a perfect man inwardly strengthening me. Philippians 4:13

Chapter 5. Their dangerous errors

Some ignorantly deny Him, or rather have been denied by Him, being the advocates of death rather than of the truth. These persons neither have the prophets persuaded, nor the law of Moses, nor the Gospel even to this day, nor the sufferings we have individually endured. For they think also the same thing regarding us. For what does any one profit me, if he commends me, but blasphemes my Lord, not confessing that He was [truly] possessed of a body? But he who does not acknowledge this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such persons, inasmuch as they are unbelievers. Yea, far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent and return to [a true belief in] Christ's passion, which is our resurrection.

Chapter 6. Unbelievers in the blood of Christ shall be condemned

Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Matthew 19:12 Let not [high] place puff any one up: for that which is worth all is faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred. But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.

Chapter 7. Let us stand aloof from such heretics

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Chapter 9. Honour the bishop

Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

CSomeone here not recently ventured to say that the Church Fathers were Protestant. Well, read the above and disabuse yourselves.

Your denigrated view of non-Catholics as "defective" shows only your own defects

It is not my personal view, so let us not get personal.

FIFTH QUESTION

Why do the texts of the Council and those of the Magisterium since the Council not use the title of “Church” with regard to those Christian Communities born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century?

RESPONSE

According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense[20].

RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH


5,042 posted on 12/09/2010 5:46:44 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
Honestly, I really could not care less if the Catholic Church recognizes other churches as "churches" or not. The reason is that it is God, not man, who sees into the heart and knows if the faith in Christ is real or not. And THAT is the determinate of "church" membership. We know that the church is the called-out assembly of the body of Christ and membership happens when by faith we trust in Jesus Christ as our Savior and certainly not when a baby gets splashed with water with a slogan spoken by anyone.

One more thing, Ignatius did NOT capitalize the word "catholic" in his letter because we know that in his day the church out of Rome that today considers itself the "real" amalgamation of all the body of Christ did not even exist. At that time, in Rome, there was a fledgling church made up of believers in Christ, they had a local leader just as those in Antioch had him, Jerusalem had theirs, etc,. It was not until 375 A.D. that the church in Rome declared itself sovereign. So, even though Ignatius is not an inspired nor inerrant source, he was correct that some deny the gift of God and reject the truth of Jesus' humanity/deity and his bodily resurrection. However, he was NOT speaking of "Protestants", obviously, and he would not count us out of the Church of Jesus Christ today either. I believe also, that wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the universal church. Some of you need to get over that sin of exclusivist pride that keeps you from enjoying your place in the family of God.

5,066 posted on 12/09/2010 8:59:26 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: annalex; boatbums; blue-duncan
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

CSomeone here not recently ventured to say that the Church Fathers were Protestant. Well, read the above and disabuse yourselves.

Letters of Ignatius as proof of anything is problematic. In addition to the known forgeries, the existence of short, mid, and long rescensions of ones which may contain some truth leaves one to guess just what to believe.

"... Of later collections of Ignatian letters which have been preserved, the oldest is known as the "long recension". This collection, the author of which is unknown, dates from the latter part of the fourth century. It contains the seven genuine and six spurious letters, but even the genuine epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of its author. For this reason they are incapable of bearing witness to the original form. The spurious letters in this recension are those that purport to be from Ignatius."

Catholic Encyclopedia - Ignatius

Do you care to venture a guess when "catholic" - adjective became "Catholic" - proper noun?

5,120 posted on 12/10/2010 2:00:34 PM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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