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To: Belteshazzar; blue-duncan
very simple way to outline this

What you stated is a personal philosophy vaguely connected to the scripture. In a few critical points you substitute what you (or Luther and many others) think and then you find a prooftext hera and prooftext there to appear to be "scriptural".

1) Salvation won for us [...] was won on the cross of Calvary by Christ alone. In this Rome errs

In this Rome agrees. There is no need for another Savior. But this not yet a salvation given, so we proceed.

2) Salvation given to us: [...] that is to say, the proclamation that all sins are forgiven for the sake of His bitter suffering and death [...] Through these, that is, the Gospel and Sacraments, as through means, the salvation that Christ won then and there for the whole world is conveyed to us here and now

That part, by itself, is true, -- that is why the Church is here, to proclaim the Gospel and to offer the Sacraments.

3) Salvation received by us: [...] The means of receiving it is faith, faith pure and simple

Christ spent a lot of time teaching that our sins are forgiven and salvation available to us conditional on our behavior. First, they are conditional on our forgiveness of tresspasses against us (Lk 11:4), conditional on our good works in general (Mt 25:31-46), conditional on repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16), conditional on not merely declarative but all-consuming, self-denying faith (Luke 14:26-27). Sins are forgiven not wholesale but by the Apostles, and so therefore by their assigns (John 20:23). So no, what you say here is very simple way but it has nothing to do with what the scripture teaches, so it is also a very wrong way.

Of course, Ephesians 2:8-9, the only scripture you bring in support, is an incomplete quote. The full quote explains what I just said: we are His "workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them". Note the imperative "should walk". Good works are required for our salvation. We are saved by grace alone but not by faith alone. That, is the message of James -- not a "warning" that our faith might not be a dead one, but that such as it is faith is not sufficient for salvation alone.

What Roman Catholics seem unable to believe is that which God says and promises, that true, heaven-sent faith will produce good works (good tree leads to good fruit).

Why, yes. Faith will produce works. No one said otherwise. It would be height of insanity to "pick up a cross and follow Christ" without believing in Christ. But in order to be saved you cannot just wait for these works to be some kind of chemical product of the faith. You have to either do the good works or you will kill your faith, as St. James so thunderously states. "Why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46). Faith is what we do.

In short,

If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Trent, Session 6, CANON IX


3,059 posted on 11/23/2010 6:43:51 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

“But in order to be saved you cannot just wait for these works to be some kind of chemical product of the faith. You have to either do the good works or you will kill your faith, as St. James so thunderously states. “Why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). Faith is what we do.”

That statement has so many contradictions in it as to be unintelligible.

How can lack of good works kill your faith if “Faith is what we do”?

One has to believe someone is Lord in order to call him “Lord”. What Jesus is saying is the evidence of that belief is obedience.


3,062 posted on 11/23/2010 6:56:18 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: annalex

annalex, you might as well be from Mars for all that we have in common. I honestly do not understand how you read, parse, and understand human language.

As for your reference to this particular canon of Trent with which you conclude your response to my previous post, to whit:

“If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
Trent, Session 6, CANON IX”

This is nothing less than the spirit of antichrist, the exact negation of the very truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


3,071 posted on 11/23/2010 8:34:59 PM PST by Belteshazzar
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