Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
Let me try the first sentence of my first post today again:
“And if such were the case, and the Church of the fourth century is that of Rome today, then they certainly were amiss in failing to put even one example of believers praying to the departed, or instructions thereto, or for the church to submit to Peter as it’s supreme head, etc.”
The text to speech software failed to read my mind, and i missed proofing this sentence.
Got to say I agree with sfa, FK. You lost me on this one!
"Calvin was very muslim like in doing this because his view of God is dualistic."
More Manichean, sfa. In fact, I'd suggest that Calvinism really is more Manichean than Christian.
I have no intention of holding your hand throughout the entire process. Begin here:
If you have difficulty in discerning my intention, or your gratituous accusation of a "lie", simply forget the whole thing. I'll explain it to my cat who will certainly be equally capable of understanding. Besides, I am more patient with her.
Missed the point, again! I will try to remember that I must spell everything out for you and not assume you will recognize nuance.
You really cannot say we "Protestants" ignore selected Scriptures - I know that is always the pat answer, but it doesn't really work. When I asked you if you believed John 3:16, you replied you did, yet you then continue stating the standard Catholic line of works being necessary for salvation. Tell me where in John 3:16 does our Lord say "that whosoever believeth in him (and does good works) shall not perish but have everlasting life"? That's what I meant about needing to add the spin and say it doesn't really mean what it says that you accuse Protestants of.
Please save your "Protestants don't believe in Christ" rhetoric because you are wrong, you have been told that repeatedly, you have been shown it repeatedly, yet you cannot refrain from saying it at every opportunity. I KNOW Catholics do not believe in everything Christ said, because I once was one and rarely did we even read for ourselves what God's word said and if we dared do so and, as a result, we questioned the "Church's" teachings, we were admonished to leave the "interpreting" to the priest. You can deny this all you want, but I experienced it for myself as have others on this forum. We were lied to, deceived and drawn away from the truth of God's grace and God, through his mercy and love, saw our earnest desire for the truth and he rewarded our search with his true Gospel.
As many of have said, we did not initially seek to leave the Catholic Church but we eventually realized that staying, knowing what we now do, would hinder our walk with Christ and we would be hypocrites pretending allegiance to a religion that we knew did not teach the truth.
Everything? In context?
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment::9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Jesus once asked peter.."who do you say I am"..Who do you say He is? What did His death on a cross accomplish for you? Did it mearly make it possible for you to earn salvation through your church and works or did it really do something?? Look to Christ annalex , not yourself or a religious institution ... Born to us this day is a Savior. A SAVIOR
Jesus never taught salvation by works, in fact he taught just the opposite
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
What is the will of the Father? Scripture says this is His will for men Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The will of the Father is that we believe, so what does Jesus say to the man that thought his works or self righteousness would earn him salvation ?
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
That mans WORKS which he did in the name of Jesus were called SIN (iniquity) by Christ. Why?
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
Please this Christmas do not look into the manger and the infant there..look to the cross and the man that is the propitiation (wrath bearer) for your sins..
Believe John 6
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Amen. I believe that when we get this part right, everything else makes sense!
Amen, that's a great story. It's absolutely true that we cannot always understand how what is happening around us is good. I am immediately reminded of the story of Joseph and his jealous brothers. The attitude he had is a great role model.
It requires faith, -- but we also accept the scripture by faith. There is no shortage of sundry atheists who say that the veracity of the Holy Scripture is up for grabs. You either trust the Church's witness or you don't. Those who do are Catholics.
the Catholic church is in a pretty weak position to criticize and condemn someone for being skeptical of their truthfulness.
To criticize is logical, because by your scepsis your faith is defective and illogical. To condemn is indeed unfair, but I do not condemn anyone for lack of belief of any kind. You are not Catholic and you are free to believe whatever you want. Now, what is worthy of condemnation are the Protestant beliefs that contradict the scripture, and they happen to be your foundational beliefs in Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. For those I do condemn you as heretics and people who place their souls in great peril by listening to the charlatans of the Reformation. You disbelief in the life of the Holy Mother of God as it is known to us is something I am ready to shrug off; I only argue on this because you choose to argue.
Scripture, please. This is one of those Protestant theological fantasies. Sanctification is gradual and lasts a lifetime.
[2] Grace to you and peace be accomplished in the knowledge of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord: [3] As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness, are given us, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue. [4] By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world. [5] And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; [6] And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; [7] And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. [8] For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. [10] Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. (2 Peter 1)Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48)
If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me (Matthew 19:21)
It's from John 6 right near the place where Catholics claim that Jesus said they had to eat His actual flesh and drink his actual blood.
John 6:52-58 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
Here it says that whoever eats His flesh and blood will live forever and never die.
Don't Catholics die?
If they do, does that mean they didn't REALLY eat Jesus REAL flesh and blood?
I usually don’t answer out of sequence, but as a bonus for your quick reponse, yes, we do believe that. One who worthily (for example, after a confession that resulted in absolution of sins) partakes of the Holy Eucharist, till such time that he sins again, is ready for Heaven and will have life eternal forever if he should die.
Perhaps (5) Still, we don’t take for granted that Mary did not have other children just so, we believe the witness of the Church.
However, I don’t argue over words. Whatever it is you think we are doing, it is a belief based on our belief in the historical witness of the Church, the same belief that we have in the scripture as a historical document produced by the Church.
Belteshazzar: So, this is your response to my question of how a “good tree” comes to be?
Yes, -- why is it not a response? You may disagree with it -- on that in a moment , but why do you accuse me that I "don’t listen and respond to what’s said in a way that indicates you actually understand the point at issue"? You asked how one is counted among good trees or among sheep, and I answered: by becoming a saint.
It is not something God does, but the individual does?
Individual and God cooperate in that. God answers the prayer and gives man strength to withstand trials and be a saint.
Whatsoever we shall ask, we shall receive of him: because we keep his commandments, and do those things which are pleasing in his sight (1 John 3:22, several similar )
Annalex: “You are saved by your works of charity.”
Belteshazzar: Where do you get your doctrine from?
Romans 2:6-10, Matthew 25:31-46, James 2:17-26, Apocalypse 22:12.
This is where the white rabbit has led you, away from the written Word of God
Sorry, I am not one discussing rabbits. If you have a scriptural comment, make one, like an adult, please.
That’s not what it says.
It says he shall live forever. Why isn’t Peter still alive then and the rest of the apostles who partook of the Last Supper with Jesus?
If you take the preceding sentences literally, why not that one?
I am aware of some spin to do with works being an automatic result from faith and that Paul said that works of the law do not say. None of that is satisfying as an answer, and I am sure if you posted your musings to me, I answered in that vain, and if you did not post your musings to me, please do so.
how you can read in one place that we are saved by faith alone
Where do I read that? There is no scripture that says "that we are saved by faith alone". That is the whole problem.
perhaps it is your own misreading of certain verses
In a dozenb verses that drive home the point, how can one "misread" " Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" (James 2:24).
I can easily make the claim that the Catholic Church has repeatedly invented doctrines that are denied in the Scripture, yet because you contend that they are "Holy Tradition" it ceases to matter that Scripture is contradicted by them.
Please make that claim, and I will respond by scripture alone, as I always respond to such claims. It is true that there are things we know from the Hoyl Tradition and not from the Holy Scripture alone, but if you claim that something that we teach contradicts scripture, show me.
I said your assertion of what James 2 says obliterates other Scripture passages
Which ones? This is your mythical "we are saved by faith alone" scripture that never surfaces up?
The Jews of Jesus day made claims of having long standing tradition and eminent forefathers too. It was of no value whatsoever in 70 C.E. Jesus had earlier said their ‘house was abandoned to them’ and all the claims went up in smoke.
Beginning in his own time Jesus gave the illustration of the wheat and darnel.
So which one were the “fathers” of the Catholic Church? Remember Jesus the wheat and darnel were indistinguishable and would remain so until the harvest when the crop became ripe.
As Paul said, even in his day some were teaching false doctrine and attempting to assume a position of ruling over the congregations like “kings”.
While the apostles were alive they could exercise a restraint but when the last of them died and the Bible canon closed then weeds would grow along with wheat.
So what is “the historical witness” of the Catholic Church?
Apocrypha? Debates over Greek philosophy? A wheat/weed field under a murderer like Constantine?
No, the only "myth" is the one you are following that will end up condemned because Jesus said "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."(John 3:18) So the real question is: What does "believing in the name of Jesus" mean? I say, based on the complete Bible, both Old and New Testaments, that belief is relying upon, trusting in, having confidence in, to throw myself upon him, to have FAITH in him. All throughout the Bible we are given types of the coming Savior. God has never winked at or ignored sin but he has continually shown us just how sinful we really are. He constantly reminded people, especially the "religious" ones, just how holy he was and that unless we were as holy and righteous as he is, we could never be in his presence. Not for a minute and certainly not for all eternity.
The sin problem is then that we are sinners loved by Holy God who is perfectly holy and perfectly just. Because of that great love for us he has provided a way for us to be with him in a way that both satisfies his perfect justice and that makes us as holy as he is.
What I think has been our basic difference on this matter is "How does a person attain that perfection God has provided so that we can be with him in heaven?".
You state "it is by grace through faith and good works". A person, in your example, must have faith but must also perform good deeds and refrain from sin. You also say that good works can be canceled out by sin such as committing a "mortal sin" and not following the prescribed remedy which is repentance, confession and due penance. Also the "good works" you say are required include many acts, beliefs and states of mind which include complete obedience to the "Church" and her proclaimed dogmas and doctrines. In this way of thinking, sin can actually cancel out the grace of God and whatever faith we placed in it in addition to any good deeds we may have done before we died.
Getting back to the original question of how we attain the perfection God has provided us, my belief is that God, through his grace, has provided the payment for all our sins through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who, as God incarnate took upon himself the sins of all mankind - past, present and future. We know from Scripture that "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just (him) for the unjust (us), that he might bring us to God" (I Peter 3:18). All our own righteousnesses are as "filthy rags" compared to his own for us, so from that I realize that my good deeds, my good works as somehow being held at the same level or the same worth as what Christ has done for us is purely illogical. To hold that grace through faith is not enough if it doesn't also include our efforts negates the whole meaning of grace. It actually make the cross of no accord, Christ has died in vain if we can be justified by our works. When I placed my trust, faith, confidence in Jesus Christ, I came to God with empty hands. I admitted that I was a sinner in need of mercy and grace because that was the only way. I fell upon his throne of grace and through faith I was lifted up by him. He adopted me into his family. He filled me with his own Holy Spirit - which is his seal upon me for all eternity. I was saved, justified, made holy by his blood. Nothing will ever separate me from him. (Rom. 8:38)
So we in the end have two different people. One says he has faith but he also tries his best to follow all the rules out of fear that he may lose Heaven. The other has faith and follows the rules out of gratitude and love because she knows she is held in his hands where he will never lose her, he will never cast her out. Everyone must make that decision which person they want to be. But only one is really saved because what the first person has failed to realize is that he has never really put is faith in Christ, he thinks he has but it may only have been partial, it is not all. And God wants ALL.
"You don't become a saint by *acting like one*. You act like one after you become a saint."
"Scripture, please. This is one of those Protestant theological fantasies. Sanctification is gradual and lasts a lifetime."
Speaking for myself, and i think may others, while i uphold that it is faith alone that saves, i do not hold that it is a faith that is alone, nor did classic Protestantism, but that faith that has no holiness and works is not salvific.
The meek shall inherit the earth, and it not vain hearers but "the doers of the law shall be justified," (Rm. 2:13) and Jesus is "the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him," (Heb. 5:9) not due to the merit of said works but because such is an attribute of saving faith.
The convicted and contrite sinner comes to the crucified and risen Lord Jesus Christ destitute of any means or merit whereby he may escape his just eternal damnation or merit eternal life, and casts all his faith in the mercy of God in Christ, trusting Him to save him by His blood and righteousness. And having made a basic turn in his heart from darkness to light, and resting in Christ as his savior, the response of such salvific faith is to follow Him as his Lord, according to the light he has. And repent when convicted of not doing so.
Yet while your second statement, that "sanctification is gradual and lasts a lifetime" is correct, and you cannot deny that it is initial sanctification that makes one a saint, and the oft repeated appeal of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant is for believers to live out practically what they are positionally.
Acts 9:31,32,41; 26:10; Rm. 1:7; 8:27; 12:13; 15:25,26,31; 16:2,15 and more texts refers to believers in general , as saints.
The Romans were told of the salvation and position they had with God by faith before being exhorted to live it out. (Rm. 1-5ff)
The Corinthians were also called to be saints, (1Cor. 1:2; cf. 6:1,2; 14:33; 16:1,15, etc.) with “to be” being not in the Greek where it is used, and after chastising them for their overall immaturity and carnality, they were told told,
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)
Yet in the next book those who did not repent of sins of the flesh were warned of being reprobate, being out of the faith. (2Cor. 12:21; 13:5)
After warning the problematic Galatians not to “bite and devour one another,” Paul exhorted them, “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” (Galatians 5:25)
As per that pattern, the Ephesians were told that they were positionally made to “sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus,” (Eph. 2:6) and then exhorted to live it out.
Likewise the Colossians were exhorted, “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.” (Col 3:1)
And which is a principle which continues, as rather than seeking to gain acceptance of God and salvation, believers are first made “accepted in the Beloved,” (Eph. 1:6) and then, giving with life from a position of strength, they both rightly motivated and enabled to become more like Christ and to do His will. Not in order to gain salvation, but to continue in the faith, and response to so great a salvation through Jesus Christ the Lord, “whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." (Hebrews 3:6) As such enduring faith is a mark of the elect.
As for knowing you are saved, the Bible , both provides for that, as well as the means by which one will never fall. 1Jn. 5:13, referring to all that he wrote previously, and appealing to spiritual judgment, offers that one can have assurance of eternal life if his faith corresponds to the marks of saving faith delineated therein.
In addition, the text you posted, 2 Peter 1:1-10, calls believers is to add to their faith things which make for maturity, with the promise that if one gives diligence to make his calling and election sure, then he “shall never fall.”
However I have much to go, especially in heart. May all that is within me cry glory, and nothing grieve His Holy Spirit.
annalex wrote:
“but why do you accuse me that I ‘don’t listen and respond to what’s said in a way that indicates you actually understand the point at issue’?”
Well, OK, I will concede that maybe you do listen and understand, and only then do you purposely avoid engagement on the point at issue. That too is a possibility.
(Memo to self: Why do I feel like every time I talk to annalex some of my brain cells die?)
Since your moral obligation, frequently stated on FR, is to answer in order every post addressed to you, whether directly or not, I herewith grant you a special - time saving! - dispensation allowing you to forego responding to this one, if you so choose.
You're not a trial lawyer, are you! ten eyewitnesses almost invariably tell ten noticeably different stories, FK, without any of them being either a liar or crazy.
I'm not a trial lawyer, but any lawyer knows that different eyewitnesses often give very different accounts. But different accounts can also be 100% factually true. There are many many minor surface discrepancies in certain details of the same event in different Gospels. That doesn't mean any of them are wrong. It just means that certain facts were emphasized and some were not mentioned.
For example, Luke 24:12 says that Peter ran to the tomb. But John 20:4 says that both Peter and John ran to the tomb. Is one wrong? No, both are 100% factually correct. Luke simply emphasizes Peter and omits that John was also there. No big deal. Therefore, I submit that my statement stands. If John's eyewitness testimony was FACTUALLY WRONG, then he had to know it and was lying or crazy. By the manner of presentation, there is no room here for simple mistake, either Jesus said what He said or He didn't, etc. Of course, all of this presupposes that John was writing on his own, which is not what the Church holds, so it is a bit of a moot point. The only errors in John's Gospel would be ones made by God. It's my understanding that at least the Latins would agree with this.
FK: "To interpret this theme as a superior-subordinate relationship is to simply declare the whole of Christianity void on its face."
But it's OK to deny the "monarchy" of the Father by an embrace of the filioque clause?
As far as I understand the issue, yes. Everyone agrees that the Father sent the Son, and there is no issue of subordination. Why then would there arise an issue over whether the Holy Spirit "proceeded" from the Father alone or the Father and Son? Either way, there should still be no issue of subordination. Whatever the precise meaning of "proceeded" is, I wouldn't think it would infringe on the Three being co-eternal and co-equal.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.