Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
In Christ Alone lyrics
Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;
In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save
?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live
There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ
Yes, and these men all were Catholic Christians.
The NT scriptures existed before the Roman church
Before the Catholic Church founded its Roman local Church? Possibly, but that is not the point. The Catohlic Church was established by Christ in the Upper Room with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles. "Rome" has little to do with it.
the ASSUMPTION that the "church" of the NT is today the Roman Catholic church
It is an assumption that can be proven and in fact has been proven. Whatever changes that happened between the time the New Testament was written and the Church today are perhaps refinement and firther explanation of the Faith, but the Catohlic Church today professes the faith of the Apostles, as we can see from the Hoyl Scripture. This is in contrast to the inventions done by Luther in direct contradiction of the Scripture. Every time I ask where does the Catholic Church today contradict the scripture I get fluffy nonsense like "meat on Friday" -- something that does not pertain to the dogmas of the faith itself. That is because while there is much the Church taught the world that is not in the scripture, there is nothing that is in the scripture that the Church disagrees with. The Church is the inspired human author of the New Testament and the inspired final editor and exegete of the Old Testament.
Armenian-speaking should read Aramaic-speaking
In the post you are responding to, 1815 I said
The importance of faith for salvation is the major theme of two epistles, to the Romans and to the Galatians. None of the two -- nor any other scripture teaches that we are saved by faith ALONE. That latter part is the invention of Luther. Why do the Romans and Galatians focus on the role of faith? Because, first, faith is very important -- a sane person would not do the works of charity unless he had faith. The focus in Romans and Galatians is to correct the judaizing heresy that held that the obedience to Jewish Law -- circumcision and dietetic rules -- was a precondition to Christianity. So St. Paul stresses that in Christ there si no Jew or Greek -- we are Christians because we have faith in Christ. Circumcision has nothing to do with it. Generally, works done out of a legal obligation, or for a reward in this life, e.g. social recogniton or salary -- do not contribute to salvation. That is waht St. Paul teaches in Romans and Galatians and that is what the Catholic Church teaches also.
Now what, do you think, is in the several quotes from Romans and Galatians that teaches Faith Alone? What is in these quotes that you think I did not understand when I posted 1815?
Catholics [...] believe keeping the law is necessary for salvation ..
No we don't. We teach what the Letters to Romans and Galatians teach: that nothing in the Jewish Law or any other law, including the canonical law of our Church, is salvific in nature. Nothing that is done on obligation or for wages, or to gain social status is salvific. Here's the Catechism, prove me wrong: Catechism
Please tell me that was a typo....
With that you seem to disagree and feel saddened, and call me pharisaic and can't imagine Jesus and St. Paulwould be startled by the formula.
Yet in Matthew 5-7 and in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus says the same thing I say. In Roamns 2:6-10 St. Paul says the same thing also. People are judged by their works of self-denial and charity. Those who do them are saved, those who do not are condemned.
Scripture saddens you?
How does that contradict what the Catholic Church teaches?
First, is a work is done because the law says so, that work is not "good works" that the Bible urges us to do. It is something we do, and it is good that we obey laws, but it is not of salvific nature. Second, it is very true that a single mortal sin demolishes all the good works one had done prior to that sin. Good works save, but not by any magic, and certainly not because they might at some point fill some quota. They configure the soul onto Christ, they create a habit of imitating Christ, they sanctify,-- but one still has to have a regular church life, and confess sins in order to obtain salvation.
Good works alone do not save anymore than faith alone saves.
Thank you for raising that important point. This is one example where patience is requred to understand Catholic teaching as a whole rather than picking on thing, understanding is badly and waving Protestant slogans in the air.
To annalex in regard to your three points made in response, respectively:
1) No, not in the sense you mean.
2) Piffle. The church of the firstborn, the children of God, the followers of the woman’s Seed, has existed since the fall into sin. If you want to say the Catholic Church was established in the upper room, go ahead, since what you are referring to is the outward structure of “church.” But that is not what Christ established in the upper room. There He put the last piece in place for the church of the fulfillment of the OT, that is, the church of the NT, which as Revelation and other places show, is one in faith with the church of the OT. On this point all 24 elders agree (said a little tongue in cheek, perhaps, but not much). He established nothing more, but surely nothing less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3) No. Simply, no.
I'm only trying to show that Jesus was quoting from the Hebrew scroll of Isaiah in Hebrew. You seemed to say he was reading from the Targum in Aramaic, so I showed the point that if the Targum is read in the Synagogues it is AFTER the verse(s) is read in Hebrew. 'kay?
Chapter and verse?
Matthew 5-7 and Matthew 25 second half. also see a readar's digest version in Romans 2:6-10, John 5:29. Regarding Mary Magdalen, the reference was to the episode in John 12, and indeed it probably was another Mary and not Mary Magdalen
How many works? How do you know you did them with the right motive? That you did the right ones? That you've done enough?
You have done enough when you die and go to heaven. There is no quota to fill. One must examine his conscience for the motive, and at times indeed there is room for doubt; Christ, however, knows your soul and knows your motivation. It is important to go about your day prayerfully, and then whatever it is you do becomes sanctifying work. It is not complicated, if you have the simple faith of a child (Mt 18:4). Also, study the lives of the saints. They, somehow managed to get "done enough". So study what they did and imitate them.
annalex wrote:
“People are judged by their works of self-denial and charity.”
Then we are all in a lot of trouble. Some just don’t know it. This comes kind of assertion comes from a complete misunderstanding of Matthew 25:31-46. One question only, following the text, how does the Judge know which are His sheep and thus who to put on His right hand (for this happens before there is any mention of works)?
annalex also asked:
“Scripture saddens you?”
No. You do.
Good works sanctify???? You don't get that from Holy Scripture.
Hebrews 10:10,14
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Acts 26:18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
“I should have saw that coming
Please tell me that was a typo.... “
Its doubtless a translation problem.... :)
"..That no flesh should glory in His presence.
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is MADE UNTO US wisdom,and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." 1 Cor. 1:29-31.
Seldom do I have time to proof read like I should. You’re welcome to correct my grammar if I can correct your theology. ;O)
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Except the OT church would deisagree.
Okay. It's just that the Jews did not understand Hebrew, which is why the verse had to be translated/explained in Aramaic. So whether it was first read in Hebrew or Chinese is irrelevant. It still had to be re-read and/or explained in Aramaic.
You'd have to know Greek to do that. Maybe mastering English first is a more realistic goal. :)
Were we talking about the Old Testament books being in HEBREW or weren't we? That was the whole reason why I even brought the subject up. It is a FACT that the Jews had the scrolls in their synagogues and the temple and they were in the Hebrew language not Aramaic or Greek. Certainly the Targums could have been used but they HAD the scriptures in the original language. I also firmly believe that, although some of the Jews may not have spoken Hebrew the learned and religious ones certainly were fluent in it. Paul included.
Shall I "sacrifice" the time or shall I "victim" the time?
Excuse me but I'm not the one who believe the word "sacrifice" and "victim" means the same thing even though it comes from a root word. ;O)
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