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To: YHAOS; Alamo-Girl; OldNavyVet; r9etb; Diamond; MHGinTN; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; ...
...justice demands responsibility for one’s actions. Without Free Will, the concept of justice is irrelevant, nonexistent even (as is the concept of responsibility).

So very true, dear YHAOS! Indeed as you say neither justice nor personal responsibility has any meaning absent Free Will. (Yet it seems cruel and irrational to impose a punishment on someone who was powerless to choose to do other than what he did.) Which may account for the fact that irresponsible and unjust people like to dispose of Free Will by simply calling it an illusion — just another "ghost in the machine." It has no basis in Darwin's theory [see essay at the top]. So it must be a fiction.

The history of Justice in the West goes back to ancient Greece, and quite likely further back to antecedents in Egypt and the Middle East. The Greeks called it Dike — meaning not only Justice, but order, law, right. Moreoever it seems the Greeks also believed in the divine judgment of souls on the basis of personal responsibility. [See The Pamphyllian Myth, "The Myth of Er," in Plato's Republic.]

Until quite recently, Justice has been understood as the universal moral order of the world, physical and human. As David Fideler has written:

The simple fact remains that the scales of justice are inexorable — it is a principle of Nature, and not merely of human morals, that each should receive its due. If we poison our rivers, we poison ourselves; if we act in stupidity, it is only appropriate that we suffer the consequences. If there is a moral to the story it is simply that individuals and societies are far less likely to run into trouble should they possess an awareness of these principles and relationships. —The Pythagorean Sourcebook and Library, by Kenneth Sylvan Guthrie, 1987, p. 45

The constructors of Second Realties know the best way to destroy First Reality is to deny its foundation in truth and justice, and to convince us that Free Will does not exist....

'Tis a tad depressing....

Thank you ever so much for writing, dear YHAOS!

133 posted on 11/05/2010 12:28:13 PM PDT by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
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To: YHAOS; Alamo-Girl; OldNavyVet; r9etb; Diamond; MHGinTN; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; ...
p.s.: In America's 30 Years War: Who Is Winning?" Balint Vazsonyi shares a little "joke" involving Josef Stalin's concept of Free Will:

Truman, Churchill, and Stalin meet for the third time to sort out their differences. Again, no progress. After two frustrating days, Stalin says, "Comrades! We know that cats hate mustard. Whoever can induce a cat to eat some mustard will have his way." Challenge accepted. Truman, ever the straight shooter, takes the cat, takes a jar of mustard, and pours the latter into the mouth of the former. The cat spits out every last drop. Churchill, having watched this fiasco, prepares a sumptuous plate of liver, fish, and other cat's delights, with the tiniest drop of mustard in the center. The cat licks clean the entire plate — until he gets to the drop of mustard in the center. Stalin shakes his head with mock sympathy. "Bring me a pound of mustard and watch!" With that, Stalin takes the mustard and smears all of it over the rear end of the cat. The animal frantically chases its tail and licks the area clean to the last drop.

A triumphant Stalin exclaims, "And, as you see, he did it of his own free will!"

A nice inversion of meaning suitable for an upside-down world....
134 posted on 11/05/2010 12:50:06 PM PDT by betty boop (Seek truth and beauty together; you will never find them apart. — F. M. Cornford)
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To: betty boop; YHAOS
Without Free Will, the concept of justice is irrelevant, nonexistent even (as is the concept of responsibility).

And, more particularly, the concept of "sin" must necessarily disappear from religious discussion.....

Be that as it may, if we accept as axiomatic that there is no free will, it has an interesting corollary: when all is said and done, the universe must have a specified "direction." It seems that this leads to difficulties with some of the arguments regarding randomness vs. truth.

135 posted on 11/05/2010 1:00:48 PM PDT by r9etb
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