Posted on 10/25/2010 10:39:24 AM PDT by Colofornian
ORDINATION OF THE DEAD
This ceremony gives the Priesthood to the deceased.
Brother _______, having authority, we lay our hands upon your head, and confer upon you the Melchizedek Priesthood and ordain you an Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for and in behalf of _______, who is dead, and seal upon you every grace, gift and authority appertaining to this office in the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood, for and in his behalf, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
_______________________________________________
So this is done after the confimation for the dead eventhough the mormons DO NOT have any way of knowing if the dead dunking and the confimation for the dead was accepted by the dead person or not..
Halloween Trick or treat
Muahahahaha placemarker!
Aint it great to know that we now have a bona fide mormon president because Barry Soetoro’s Mom Stan Ann Dunham was dead dunked, confirmed as a mormon had endowments and ordinations and sealings to her children done in the mormon temple June 2008 ???
Bar5ry is a mormon...
Oh joy praise to joey smith...
THE QUESTION OF THE VALIDITY OF BAPTISM CONFERRED IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
What are the reasons which now led to this negative position regarding the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which seems different from the position of the Catholic Church throughout the centuries?
Huge divergence on Trinity and baptism invalidates the intention of the Mormon minister of baptism and of the one to be baptized
According to the traditional doctrine of the Catholic Church there are four requirements for the valid administration of the sacrament of Baptism: the matter, the form, the intention of the minister, and the right disposition of the recipient. Let us examine briefly each of these four elements in the teaching and practice of the Mormons.
I. The Matter. On this point there is no problem. Water is used. The Mormons practice Baptism by immersion (cf. Doctrine and Covenants [D&C] 20:74), which is one of the ways of celebrating Baptism (application of the matter) which is accepted by the Catholic Church.
II. The Form. We have seen that in the texts of the Magisterium on Baptism there is a reference to the invocation of the Trinity (to the sources already mentioned, the Fourth Lateran Council could be added here [DH 8021). The formula used by the Mormons might seem at first sight to be a Trinitarian formula. The text states: "Being commissioned by Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (cf. D&C 20:73). The similarities with the formula used by the Catholic Church are at first sight obvious, but in reality they are only apparent. There is not in fact a fundamental doctrinal agreement. There is not a true invocation of the Trinity because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, according to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are not the three persons in which subsists the one Godhead, but three gods who form one divinity. One is different from the other, even though they exist in perfect harmony (Joseph F. Smith, ed., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith [TPJSI, Salt Lake City: Desert Book, 1976, p. 372). The very word divinity has only a functional, not a substantial content, because the divinity originates when the three gods decided to unite and form the divinity to bring about human salvation (Encyclopaedia of Mormonism [EM], New York: Macmillan, 1992, cf. Vol. 2, p. 552). This divinity and man share the same nature and they are substantially equal. God the Father is an exalted man, native of another planet, who has acquired his divine status through a death similar to that of human beings, the necessary way to divinization (cf. TPJS, pp. 345-346). God the Father has relatives and this is explained by the doctrine of infinite regression of the gods who initially were mortal (cf. TPJS, p. 373). God the Father has a wife, the Heavenly Mother, with whom he shares the responsibility of creation. They procreate sons in the spiritual world. Their firstborn is Jesus Christ, equal to all men, who has acquired his divinity in a pre-mortal existence. Even the Holy Spirit is the son of heavenly parents. The Son and the Holy Spirit were procreated after the beginning of the creation of the world known to us (cf. EM, Vol. 2, p. 961). Four gods are directly responsible for the universe, three of whom have established a covenant and thus form the divinity.
As is easily seen, to the similarity of titles there does not correspond in any way a doctrinal content which can lead to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The words Father, Son and Holy Spirit, have for the Mormons a meaning totally different from the Christian meaning. The differences are so great that one cannot even consider that this doctrine is a heresy which emerged out of a false understanding of the Christian doctrine. The teaching of the Mormons has a completely different matrix. We do not find ourselves, therefore, before the case of the validity of Baptism administered by heretics, affirmed already from the first Christian centuries, nor of Baptism conferred in non-Catholic ecclesial communities, as noted in Canon 869 §2.
III. The Intention of the Celebrating Minister. Such doctrinal diversity, regarding the very notion of God, prevents the minister of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from having the intention of doing what the Catholic Church does when she confers Baptism, that is, doing what Christ willed her to do when he instituted and mandated the sacrament of Baptism. This becomes even more evident when we consider that in their understanding Baptism was not instituted by Christ but by God and began with Adam (cf. Book of Moses 6:64). Christ simply commanded the practice of this rite; but this was not an innovation. It is clear that the intention of the Church in conferring Baptism is certainly to follow the mandate of Christ (cf. Mt 28,19) but at the same time to confer the sacrament that Christ had instituted. According to the New Testament, there is an essential difference between the Baptism of John and Christian Baptism. The Baptism of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which originated not in Christ but already at the beginning of creation (James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith [AF], Salt Lake City: Desert Book, 1990, cf. pp. 110-111), is not Christian Baptism; indeed, it denies its newness. The Mormon minister, who must necessarily be the "priest" (cf. D&C 20:38-58.107:13.14.20), therefore radically formed in their own doctrine, cannot have any other intention than that of doing what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does, which is quite different in respect to what the Catholic Church intends to do when it baptizes, that is, the conferral of the sacrament of Baptism instituted by Christ, which means participation in his death and resurrection (cf. Rom 6,3-11; Col 2,12-13).
We can note two other differences, not as fundamental as the preceding one, but which also have their importance:
A) According to the Catholic Church, Baptism cancels not only personal sins but also original sin, and therefore even infants are baptized for the remission of sins (cf. the essential texts of the Council of Trent, DH 1513-1515). This remission of original sin is not accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which denies the existence of this sin and therefore baptizes only persons who have the use of reason and are at least eight years old, excluding the mentally handicapped (cf. AF, pp. 113-116). In fact, the practice of the Catholic Church in conferring Baptism on infants is one of the main reasons for which the Mormons say that the Catholic Church apostatized in the first centuries, so that the sacraments celebrated by it are all invalid.
B) If a believer baptized in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, after renouncing his or her faith or having been excommunicated, wants to return, he or she must be rebaptized (cf. AF, pp. 129-131).
Even in regard to these last elements it is clear that the Baptism of Mormons cannot be considered valid; since it is not Christian Baptism, the minister cannot have the intention of doing what the Catholic does.
IV. The Disposition of the Recipient. The person to be baptized, who already has the use of reason, has been instructed according to the very strict norms of the teaching and faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It must be maintained therefore that one cannot think that the Baptism received by that person is anything different from what he was taught. It does not seem possible that the person would have the same disposition that the Catholic Church requires for the Baptism of adults.Difference of views: Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity, no original sin, that Christ did not institute baptism
Summing up, we can say: The Baptism of the Catholic Church and that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints differ essentially, both for what concerns faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name Baptism is conferred, and for what concerns the relationship to Christ who instituted it. As a result of all this, it is understood that the Catholic Church has to consider invalid, that is to say, cannot consider true Baptism, the rite given that name by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints.
The position of most Christian churches is similar on mormon baptism. It is invalid.
Plus Mormons don’t even baptize children under age 8...think of all the children who have died 7 & under and the 50 million aborted alone in this country. The Mormon temple “system” doesn’t even address them!!!!
umm... so seriously with all your supposed knowledge of things you don’t know that children aren’t accountable? (typically under the age of 8 depending upon the individual)
You keep posting that you “provided” facts, evidence and
logical argument. You have not.
Absolutely have. Repeatedly. Almost daily.
At this point, your continuing false claims are laughable.
You only post links that have no facts, evidence or logical argument - just unsubstantiated claims directly from the cult headquarters. I have viewed your links.
I had an aha moment - You got zilch.
[I guess David the Psalmist failed to receive your Mormon god's memo, eh?]
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Psalm 51:5)
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. (Psalm 58:3)
Besides...if children under age eight don't have sin worthy of being held accountable for, then why did Joseph Smith specifically say they needed to be "baptized for the remission of their sins when eight..."?? (D&C 68:27).
Come on now, WHAT sins are in need of remission if they have none??? [Otherwise, that's like talking about a patient needing to undergo a procedure for remission of cancer -- even though the cancer isn't there!!!]
In fact, the D&C repeatedly says (as does Acts 2:38) that remission of sins by way of baptism (D&C 55:2; 19:31; 13:1).
Finally, note this Book of Mormon verse (Mosiah 27:25): Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
So. Even your BoM, PD...which Mormons ignore selected passages frequently...says:
You, and all children under age 8, are in a "carnal and fallen state"...
Which, in turn, needs a new birth...
And that you need to "become" his son or daughter...
You weren't one from the pre-existent "get-go"...
Sorry...PD...You've been lied to (even it was "simply" an intentional sin of "omission")...even by your own Mormon leaders who have even failed to teach you ALL that's in the BoM & D&C!!!
**1. The person dies. 2. Christ preaches to that person in spirit prison.**
Preaches-present tense
**- 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.**
Preached-past tense
What REALLY needs to be clear here, is that the epistles were written to people that had already been born again. They had already been baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost, hence the greetings in the beginning of said epistles, addressing those ‘sanctified’, ‘to the saints’, ‘called to be saints’.
**3. The essential ordinance of baptism is preformed by proxy, some accept it, some do not.**
The theme of 1 Corinthians 15 is the resurrection. You Mormans are pulling one or two verses from it to get your doctrine, completely ignoring that they must harmonize with the entire passage:
Paul was addressing the already baptized Corinthians, saying that if Christ is not risen, then they (the baptized Corinthians and himself) were without hope and that their faith was vain.
Paul, speaking in present tense to the same PREVIOUSLY baptized people, says, “Else what shall they (new converts) do which are baptized for the dead (the deceased body of Christ), IF THE DEAD RISE NOT AT ALL? why are they then baptized for the dead”.
If the Christ, and those born again (already baptized) that had passed on, which are part of the body of Christ, rise not, then why baptise new converts. “Why are they then baptized for the dead?” After all, they and the Christ didn’t rise.
NEXT VERSE!
And why stand WE (Paul and the saints at Corinth) in jeopardy ever hour? 1Cor. 15:30
AND.....
“IF after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, IF THE DEAD RISE NOT?..” 1Cor. 15:32
Paul is making it clear, that to continue preach to and baptise new converts into the body of Christ, when the ones already baptized and had passed away, don’t rise, then their hope is in vain.
That’s the flow of the passage, not just isolating one (misunderstood) verse and coming up with a brand new doctrine for baptism.
The reason for baptism for the dead in mormonism dates back to before Joey Smith wrote his book of mormon...
Jeseph Smith Sr the father was an alcoholic and not often at home while the children were young...
Alvin the older brother was the standin father for his younger siblings who loved him and were strongly attatched to him...
Alvin got sick and died...
Years later Joey Smith started his new religion and required all new members to be baptised into his mormonism to be “saved” whether or not they had been baptised as a Christian..
the Smith children had been very close to Alvin and they were concerned that Alvin never had the opportunity to be baptised into Joey Smiths new religion before he died and was therefore cut off from them and not “saved”
so Joey Smith decided that Alvin could be “saved” if a live person was baptised for him by proxy...
Thus the beginnings of the “copyrighted” baptism for the dead in mormonism, the only religion in Ameerica to do this...
From that small beginning has arose multi milliom dollar mormon temples build for the sole purpose of baptising only one group of people...dead ones..
(Plus the fact it is a great way to fleece the faithful of 10% of their hard earned income..)
Plus the “confirmation of the dead”, the “endowments”, ordinances and getting the mormon “priesthoods”, “sealings” to wives, husbands and children and other peoples wives, husbands,
Yes its a big money maker, folks...
Exclusive to the mormons..
Among the honored mormons now are Hitler, many of his Jewish victims, Stalin, Lenin, jesus christ dead dunked and married to Mary Madgalene, Catholic priests now married to woman they probably never met,
Many of my stauchly Christian ancestors, Jewish Rabbis, all the signers of the Declaration of Independence,
and in June 2008, Stanley Ann Dunham was dead dunked, endowed, sealed to her children to make them temple worthy mormons also...
and now we have our first mormon US president....Barry Soetoro
Stan Ann who was an atheist has got to be smiling...
LOL
ok so you knew children under 8 weren’t accountable and just pretended otherwise. Gotcha.
PD...like usual...you didn't answer my specific questions. Why not?
If children are born in sin, as Ps. 51:5 says...as even the BoM says (Mosiah 27:25) -- that they are in a fallen and carnal state...and if the D&C says even 8 yo children need to be baptized for the remission of their sins...then why doesn't that sinful, fallen, carnel state that produces sins need accountability?
Aren't 7 yo kids accountable before their own parents? (Then why not God as well?)
And why don't 7 year, 364-day kids need accountability in God's eyes, but 7 year, 365-day kids do?
You need to understand that the Bible knows of no such phrase as "age of accountability" other than the Psalms I quoted you...which means we're accountable before God from birth.
PD...like usual...you didn't answer my specific questions. Why not?
If children are born in sin, as Ps. 51:5 says...as even the BoM says (Mosiah 27:25) -- that they are in a fallen and carnal state...and if the D&C says even 8 yo children need to be baptized for the remission of their sins...then why doesn't that sinful, fallen, carnel state that produces sins need accountability?
Aren't 7 yo kids accountable before their own parents? (Then why not God as well?)
And why don't 7 year, 364-day kids need accountability in God's eyes, but 7 year, 365-day kids do?
You need to understand that the Bible knows of no such phrase as "age of accountability" other than the Psalms I quoted you...which means we're accountable before God from birth.
For those who want to see a new thread on exactly this issue, go to: Preaching the Gospel in the Spirit World: What Did Jesus Really Teach?
As usual you twist things and manipulate context to meet your view or purpose. Sad and pitiful.
Wild imaginations can certainly be dangerous!
Here's something to go with that whine
The first time I was sexually accosted in my life I was only 7...
The male who touched me inappropriately was only 7 also...
He was our teachers son and much bigger than me...I couldnt fight him off ...
he kept chasing me and molesting me until he was way past 9...
I was too scared to tell anyone..
So at what point did he suddenly become non-innocent of sin and suddenly accountable for his sin and crimes of sexual assault ???
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