Posted on 10/19/2010 8:21:21 AM PDT by Colofornian
In shopping around for a Cub Scout program for their two sons, ages 6 and 8, Jeremy and Jodi Stokes decided on the one at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews.
The Stokes, also of Matthews, weren't members of the evangelical megachurch, but they had many friends who were. And unlike the Cub Scout pack at their own church, which doesn't have a program for 6-year-old Tiger Scouts, Christ Covenant's was big enough to accommodate both of their boys.
The couple even signed up to be Scout leaders - he would lead the Bears, she'd help with the Tigers - when they discovered the church needed more adult help. And when the Scouting officials at Christ Covenant found out Jeremy Stokes was an Eagle Scout, they were thrilled.
So why, in the end, did Christ Covenant reject the Stokes' application to be Scout leaders?
Because they're Mormons. And, therefore, not real Christians, church officials told the couple last month.
The Rev. Gabe Sylvia, Christ Covenant's staff liaison to the Scouting program, confirmed the Stokes' account. He called them to apologize but defends the church's decision.
"Based on a once-over, informal scan, it looked like the Stokes would be good additions to our leadership," he said. "But when it became clear that they were Mormons, they could not become leaders in our pack. Mormonism is not consistent with historical Christianity."
That view - that Mormons are not Christians - is shared by other Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches. Mormons, though, do call themselves Christians.
The Stokes were told their sons were welcome to join, and that they could volunteer. But as practicing Mormons, they couldn't be leaders.
Scout Council: It's unusual
Mark Turner, executive director of the Mecklenburg County Council of the Boy Scouts, said it's the first local instance he knows of where parents were rejected for Scout leadership on religious grounds.
What upset the Stokes family most was the church questioning their Christianity.
"It was so offensive," said Jodi Stokes, who was raised Catholic, then became a Mormon. "I have a picture of Jesus in my living room."
And, she added, look at the formal name of their church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Jeremy Stokes, a Bank of America financial consultant whose family has been in the LDS (Latter-day Saints) church for generations, wrote this when asked on Christ Covenant's Scouting application to describe his relationship with Christ: "One of the most important things in my life is my faith and trust in Christ and in His Atonement. Without Christ's help and guidance, I know I wouldn't be the loving father or devoted husband or humble man I am today. His example is the one help I need and rely on every day and I am truly grateful for that."
Bishop Steven Rowlan of the LDS ward, or parish, which the Stokes attend in Weddington, acknowledged that Mormon theology diverges from some beliefs shared by most Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians. But he insisted members of the LDS church are as Christian as the members of Christ Covenant.
"Yes, there are distinct differences," he said. "But not with respect to being a Christian. We definitely and truly are Christians in every sense of the word."
Not true, say Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches. They point to the LDS church's extra-biblical scriptures (Mormons abide by the Bible and the Book of Mormon). Mormons also reject the professions of faith, or Christian creeds, that are recited on Sundays in many Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant churches.
But the Stokes case raises another issue: Do Scout leaders or coaches of sports teams have to pass the same religious tests as, say, Sunday school teachers, if those troops and teams are chartered by houses of worship?
Packs at other churches
No is the answer at many churches, including Charlotte's largest - St. Matthew Catholic, with 28,000 members.
"We have Scout leaders of many faiths at St. Matthew," said Mike Nielsen, Scoutmaster of Boy Scout Troop 8. "Other than the Scoutmaster - that one job, which goes to a Catholic - I've never heard any mention of the faith of other (Cub Scout and Boy Scout) leaders."
But at Christ Covenant - the largest Presbyterian Church of America church in the Carolinas, with 600 families - the answer is yes.
"Boy Scouts is a ministry of our church," said Sylvia, the church's pastor for Christian Education and Young Families. "We want to insure that what (Scout leaders) believe is consistent with our denominational viewpoint."
For Sylvia, that at least means that Scout leaders must believe in the Apostles' Creed - a profession of faith dating back to the early centuries of Christianity.
Stelle Snyder, the spokeswoman for Christ Covenant, said it could even extend beyond that. A decade ago, she said, the church had to say no to a Catholic dad who wanted to coach one of the church's sports teams. Catholics, she said, often stress good works as the road to salvation more than many Protestants, who emphasize grace. And she said it's part of the role of coaches in her church's sports outreach program to share Bible stories.
"From the standpoint of ministering and representing the church, those people (coaches and Scout leaders) need to be on the same page," Snyder said. "In practice and intent, this is not meant to be unwelcome, unpleasant or unnecessarily legalistic. It's all for positive reasons. And it's not that Mormons have been singled out."
Turner, executive director of Mecklenburg's Boy Scouts Council, said Christ Covenant is within its rights as a chartering organization to apply additional leadership qualifications, as long as it also honors those the Boy Scouts insist on.
Some of the Boy Scouts' national guidelines have also been controversial and, to some, discriminatory. Because the Boy Scout pledge includes fealty to God and country, no atheists and agnostics can be members or leaders. Neither can homosexuals.
In Mecklenburg, Turner estimates 150 houses of worship charter Boy Scout troops and/or Cub Scout packs - a greater number than those sponsored by civic organizations, neighborhoods, and other groups.
Asked if other houses of worship apply theological tests for their Scouting leaders, Turner said he didn't know. "We're not asking that question out there," he said.
Should they?
"I think it's a good question," Turner said. "Scout leaders are mentors to young people, whether they're 7 years old or 13 years old. If that charter organization feels strongly about that and says our mission is to achieve 'X' objective through scouting, then it's OK for them to set these parameters."
Blatant racial discrimination would be another story, he said, with the council reserving the right to revoke any group's charter.
As for the Stokes family, Turner said, what happened was "unfortunate... We in the Boy Scouts want everybody - the whole family - to have a great experience, not a bad experience."
Stokes find Scouting home
Though the family pulled their sons out of the Christ Covenant scouting program, they have since signed up their 8-year-old for the smaller Cub Scout pack chartered by their Mormon ward in Weddington. The bishop has named Jeremy Stokes the pack Cubmaster and Jodi Stokes chair of the Scout committee.
"My little guy (the 6-year-old) can't join, so he tags along," his mother said.
Nationally, the Mormon church has a close relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. What is the Mormon church's rules about appointing Scout leaders?
Mormon Bishop Rowlan, who heads the Stokes' Weddington church, would not say whether he would be open to naming a non-Mormon as a Scouting leader.
"I'd have to take each one on an individual basis," he said, adding that that is the policy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
At Christ Covenant, meanwhile, Rev. Sylvia and spokeswoman Snyder said the Stokes case will prompt the church to clarify policies that were always understood, but not necessarily written down.
"There's a need for us to be much more specific, so that it's clear whoever is in a leadership position is consistent with what Christ Covenant teaches," said Snyder.
I am a Christian, not Jewish. I am under Grace not the Law. I keep the Lord’s day, not the Jewish Sabbath as I am not Jewish.
I am under the two great commandments, I am not under the Levitical law. Christ fulfilled the Law. The Law has a purpose, to show us that we cannot keep it.
I do celebrate the birth of my Lord on Christ’s Mass and His resurrection on Resurrection Sunday. There is nothing pagan about that.
Do you neglect Yeshua’s Great Commission? Silence does not equal love.
Re-Read Romans, I remind you of the New Covenant in love.
And, again, how is keeping silent = love?
I am under the two great commandments, I am not under the Levitical law. Christ fulfilled the Law. The Law has a purpose, to show us that we cannot keep it.
I do celebrate the birth of my Lord on Christ’s Mass and His resurrection on Resurrection Sunday. There is nothing pagan about that.
Do you neglect Yeshua’s Great Commission? Silence does not equal love.
Re-Read Romans, I remind you of the New Covenant in love.
There is only ONE YHvH not three gods of the Roman "church" Are you speaking of the New Covenant defined in Jeremiah 31:31-37 ? I keep the Lord’s day, not the Jewish Sabbath as I am not Jewish. The Lord's day is Shabbat not the Pagan Son Day. Yah'shua did not change His day of rest; It was changed by pagan men. You are grafted into the chosen people if you want to be saved (Romans 11) You will have to argue that with YHvH for your lawlessness. .
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
“You are aware that neither are scripturally based”
Nothing wrong with celebrating the Risen Christ!
It is a joyous event worth celebrating.
“...and impugn the YHvH commanded Feasts of Leviticus.”
Nothing about celebrating the Risen Christ conflicts
with the rest of God’s Word, since HE rose by the power
of God to overcome death, as foretold by the Father.
Nor are Christians ever commanded to keep Israel’s feasts.
If you believe they are, please share a NT verse that
commands Christians to celebrate the Feasts.
“You do keep Holy YHvH’s Shabbat ?”
Can you give us a specific NT verse that commands the Church to keep the Sabbath?
blessings to you,
ampu
“You will have to argue that with YHvH for your lawlessness.”
Christians are not anti-nomian, we are necro-nomian, thanks to God.
“So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”
Romans 7:4-6
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiachNAsbU Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.Righteousness to all aspects of the Law is no longer required for salvation.Following the Law is to be obedient to the creator of the universe.
Rejecting YHvH's Law and following man's tradition is lawlessness.
We are in suits of flesh and will sin; however all of our sins are forgiven by the blood of the Lamb.
I am speaking of the New Covenant of Christ. The one created by His final sacrifice on the Cross.
My ‘lawlessness’ as you call it, is not lawlessness at all. I am not bound by the Law of Moses.
So, I take it that although you claim Yeshua HaMeshiach you do not recognize him as the Son of God? Interesting.
The Early Christian church celebrated on Sunday rather than Saturday because of Christ’s resurrection. Only Jews are obligated to keep Shabbat and I am not Jewish.
I am saved by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, not my works nor by the Law. Romans is clear on that as is the rest of the New Testament.
One thing I have discovered that concerns me about Messianic Jews is their legalism and that they tend to be ‘grace stealers’.
Go in peace.
He appears to be more concerned about the sabbath and levitical feasts than about those who will burn in Hell for not accepting Christ. Do you find that odd as well?
As disappointing as that is, how did the Scout advance to Life? A basic requirement for advancement in every rank up to the Eagle Award, is demonstrating Scout Spirit in a Scout’s everyday life by living the Scout Oath and Law in his daily life.
For Eagle, it’s demonstrate that you live by the principles.
Duty to God is in the Oath. How did he “demonstrate” that?
Or did he become an atheist towards the end?
Christians are not anti-nomian, we are necro-nomian, thanks to God.
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I LIKE that!
Would you please give us a link to a single post you ever made that included “data”? I don’t remember one...
I have provided links to look it up yourself many many times. You either don’t look, don’t like the answers or refuse to accept them due to your pride. I can’t control that but I do empathize since I was once like you.
But like I have said repeatedly, I mainly leave the links for the person who is sincerely seeking the truth.
We are either bound by the Law or we are freed by Grace.
We are obedient to God out of love not duty, but Christ gave 2 commandments, the Levitical law was a taskmaster.
That is not the ‘traditions’ of men.
Uri,
Thanks for responding, but not only is Christ the end of the Law for righteousness, but Christians died with Him to the Law. Romans 7 covers this, among other places. I am “dead to the Law” as the Apostle Paul wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. THANKFULLY!!!
blessings,
ampu
So, you pick and choose what aspects of the law you are under?
Do you eat with “gentiles”?
“Would you please give us a link to a single post you ever made that included “data”? I don’t remember one...
“I have provided links to look it up yourself many many times.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh, I see, when you posted links, you think you provided data! Ha! Thanks. I get it. Or, rather, I get that you provided no data, but just posted links and want to claim you contributed.
Not so much.
If someone is sincerely seeking truth, he or she won’t find it in the cult of mormonism. It is the antithesis of truth, denying every belief of Christianity and embracing every heresy the Church has condemned over 2,000 years.
best,
ampu
That’s a great story.
guess you were meant for each other.
No, he was pretty much an atheist from the get go. He joined late and while everyone knew, he never said anything publicly. Kind of a dont ask, dont tell.
He was a decent guy that didnt do anything against anyone in the troop, so it wasnt brought up until absolutely necessary. They board was even willing for him to say that he believes there is a force (not Star Wars type) greater than him, kind of a new age Captain Planet style religion, but he wouldnt budge.
Its kind of a weird situation, because I admire him for not saying he believed something that everybody else wanted him to when he didnt. Most people would just lie and say they believed in something (look at the politicians who find religion in Octobers of even years).
Unfortunately for the Scout Oath, morally straight can easily be masked. Go to Church, recite some scripture and you pass. There isnt a definitive way to prove you are devoted to God, which is what I believe leads to most religious arguments.
It creates some interesting doctrine.
Funny, I do none of those things.
I have read the information, liked the answers because they further prove that Mormonism has numerous failings and gladly accept those answers.
They are into scouting in a big way. Something doesn't seem right about this story of a so-called “Mormon” needing to go to another church other than their own.
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