Posted on 10/11/2010 2:57:22 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
I have Sky Angel which has all Christian types. A big abuser of this is half of the channels. The other half I can deal with part Catholic, Charismatic and Well balanced Reform types(R. C. Sproul).
Pray to Who Jesus prayed to. Very simple - no need for definitions - HE gave us all we need to know in His Word.
‘But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it’.
Who knows, maybe the rest used a dictionary to find out what is prayer and who to pray to.
I have a LOT of respect for David Wilkerson.
Amen.
I was not AT any of those venues.
It’s easy to throw rocks from a distance or at a video.
Lots of things are not as they appear. Some are.
I like to give folks grace until it is brazenly clear that God has cut their cord. He’s the only one who can see their hearts.
As to demonization . . . we all probably need some level of deliverance from some level of demonic attack most of the time.
I like Andrew Strom. I don’t agree with everything he says all the time.
I don’t agree with everything a Baptist/ AoG/ NonDenom . . . whatever pastor says all the time.
It’s been amusing that many RC’s don’t agree with everything the Pope says all the time . . . yet still seem to rant on AS THOUGH he were durn near infallible most of the time.
Life is messy. People are messy.
RELIGION IS SURE messy.
God will clean us and everything else up in His time.
How long have you had this fantasy that I was interested in debating you?
But keeping in mind John 13:35 it was interesting to see the potshots you and Quix were taking at each other.
I think the church needs a large dose of Romans 14: we should pray for one another and determine not to put a stumbling block in one another's way.
Cheers!
Have you read the Cross and the Switchblade?
Thanks thanks.
Wow! Thats not such bad answer. Some real wisdom in what you said. Yeah! Life throws some weird curve balls! 10-4
Praise God.
Thanks for your kind reply.
Yes! Years ago.
I forgot about it until I read your post about Pastor David Wilkerson.
What a testimony he has - the NYC gangs, etc.
Wowzer. Just working my way through the above. This is certainly an eye-opener, I had no idea about this insanity. Will read more now. I’m almost speechless.
I do not recall ever having debated with you, and it makes a difference in how I interpret and respond to your posts.
Well what question are you asking me? Do I consider myself a Christian? Yes I do. Will you consider me a Christian? That you would even presume the authority to make such an evaluation should astonish me, but it is all too common.
I am not interested in your judgement of my Chrisitanity - nor anyone's for that matter. And personally, I don't believe Jesus is pleased with everyone running around judging each other, either, But that's just me. I understand that for many people, there's not much point in being a Christian if you can't judge other people.
But I will tell you that what you call yourself makes no difference to how I interpret and respond to your posts, and I think that's a pretty major difference between us right there - I don't presume any judgement authority over your spiritual path.
As for Quix, he obviously does not believe in the validity of the Marian phenomenon, while I do. So what? We agree on some things, disagree on others. Oh BTW, I'm not a Catholic, either.
So what am I? How do I answer religious "experts"? Jesus said this:
One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
- Matthew 22:35-40
That's what I am. is it good enough for you? What chrch does it belong to? Catholic? Christian? Pentecostalist? Which one - tell me, because I don't want to screw up and go to hell and burn forever. So which church does this passage belong to?
Oh, and is it NOT a part of Hinduism? Or Buddhism? Or Taoism? Tell me how these religions don't include these MOST IMPORTANT commandments.
I know, simplistic. But I guess I am too - and I'm glad Jesus had mercy upon people as simple as me, by giving us a teaching we can comprehend and live. I know ya'll think I'm deficient, but over the years, I've learned to live with your disapointment in me.
grey_whiskers wrote: Swami Muktananda's teaching can be summarized in two quotations:
* Honor your Self, Worship your Self, Meditate on your Self, God dwells within you as you.
* See God in Each Other.
Called third strike. This is NOT what the Holy Spirit calls Christians to.
"Called third strike?" Maybe the strike is in the mind of the caller. Because when I read these teaching from Muktananda, I hear:
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you." - John 15: 9-12
Like I said, I don't measure up to the kinds of logic chopping which you all are worried is going to land me in hell. So I'm glad Jesus - and Muktananda - put it in simple enough words so that even I can understand.
Oh, and grey_whiskers? I disagree with the Hindus on a lot of things too, so if you and G.K. want to continue to hold court over the validity of that five thousand year old franchise, that's okay by me. But a word of advice - take it easy on mixing the first and third chakra stuff with your sixth chakra. If you get too hooked on the rush, when the Kundalini hits them you're going to find it hard going. For myself, I'll just own my own opinions about things. Unlike you, who speak for the Church - right? I mean, it's not like you're just speaking your opinion. You're authorized to teach - right? And because of that, you're not personally responsible for your positions, because you're... well, you're... absolved... of things like that. Right?
And here's a final thought: I and people like me, sit back and watch millions of Catholics and Protestants going at it, all certain each other is going to hell, and that's when you already acknowledge that the other is a Christian. Yet none of you - none of you - see your bickering as any reason why someone else should perhaps not be so worried about getting your religious approval. At the very least, one would think a tad bit of humility would work it's way in. But I have yet to see any over many years, and so I have no belief it will occur here now. Nevertheless, I thought you might be interested in how an "ousider" sees your "authority."
Well, that's all for me tonight. May the Holy Spirit watch over all of you and keep you safe from both demons and non-religion-affiliated spiritual people with personal opinions.
He is a great witness. I admire him. He even confessed a pornography addiction on the pulpit when nobody else knew. He asked for forgiveness. I believe an honest man.
I didn’t know that about the porn.
I get a monthly newsletter from his ministry - called Pulpit Series. All great teachings of his.
He was truly led by the Spirit when he left his wife/children to go to NYC to ‘help’ the gangs. Who does that today?
Nicky Cruz, a gang leader turned his life around (back then) and is now a pastor because of David.
http://nickycruz.org/about/nicky_story/
Yes I remember. That was 50 years ago. He is now in his seventies. Bless-em!
First of all, let me admit I have not read every bit of the thread, although a fair amount, nor have I watched the videos. I’ll have to make some time tomorrow.
But I do know a bit about Swami Muktananda. He was an impersonalist (monist) who acted as guru - guru means holy teacher - but fell into illicit sex with some of his (very) young female disciples. A huge freaking NO NO and those actions alone totally disqualified him. Absolutely. A guru who uses his disciples sexually is a fraud, a cheat, a liar, and not any less than a father who sexually uses his children.
Secondly, anything he taught must be seen through the light of his iniquity. A guru is considered like a spiritual father (or mother, as the case may be) to his disciples, and anyone who experiences sexual urges at all (other than legitimate sexual intercourse open to conception, with a legally wedded wife, or husband, as the case may be), what to speak of acting on them, is by that fact disqualified from guiding anyone spiritually. Such acts are considered no different than incest.
The understanding of “guru” is this: someone who is fully surrendered to God, has no desire for anything in this world, no desire to use anyone, is humble, never - I repeat - never - charges any money for talks, audience, or anything - and in fact, there is a list of about 28 qualities a guru must have to be genuine. So Muktananda is crossed off the list.
So any pronouncements Swami [sic, “swami” is a title that means “one who is master of his senses and mind” which Muktananda obviously was NOT!] Muktananda made are utterly worthless and without any merit.
Additionally, his teachings are essentially this - there is no Person of Godhead, that no individuals actually exist, and that everyone is God. Which is of the Impersonal or monist school of Vedic teachings, and considered by Veda Vyasa (also known as Dvaipayana Vyasadeva) to be inferior or partial understanding of Godhead. Analogy: if you see someone standing in the sun, you may be blinded by the sunlight and not see the person. So those who think there is no Personal Godhead are blinded by His light.
I’d have to know more about this goddess to know who he’s even talking about. The word “chit” means pure consciousness, and I am not familiar with a goddess of this name.
I can explain more about the status of demigods, but here it is in brief:
There are a large number of demigods and demigoddesses in Vedic cosmology. These beings live within the confines of this universe, which is created by the Supreme Godhead or Bhagavan, and has a beginning and an end. There exists the eternal realm or Para Vyoma (literally the supreme sky) or Vaikuntha (literally the realm without anxiety) where Godhead dwells eternally with countless liberated souls.
This universe (there are countless universes) exists for the redemption of rebellious souls. The demigods and goddesses are agents of the Supreme Godhead in the management of the universe, with (from our small vision) vast and great powers. But they are finite beings with powers delegated to them by God Himself, and they consider and know themselves to be His servants.
They are in essence souls* just like us, who have greater bodies and powers in which to serve God, just as we have greater bodies and powers compared to ants. So no demigod or goddess can possibly be considered to be the Holy Spirit. I am not entirely sure what Christians mean by Holy Spirit, perhaps this may serve:
One aspect of Godhead as manifest in the created universes is named Paramatma, which literally means “Supreme Soul”. He accompanies each soul throughout their sojourns, giving guidance from within the heart; which is heard or experienced variously depending on the level of envy or rebellion. The very envious souls will not hear His instructions from within, the fully surrendered soul will always hear His guidance and feel His presence.
I hope this is clear...
*Just to make the meaning of soul (in Sanskrit jivatma, or small individual soul or eternal self) more clear - each living being is eternally an individual spiritual spark or living self, and while existing in the created universes, must “wear” a physical body of earthly elements. These bodies range from the tiniest microbe up to human forms, up to the great demigods. All must face birth and death, even the demigods. But death of the body is not the end of the soul’s existence; as stated in the Bhagavad Gita, “for the soul there is neither birth nor death, nor having once been, does he ever cease to be”.
Just read much of the rest of the thread, at least comments.
Kundalini in the yoga sutras is not a person, it is an energy, a subtle energy. But in Vedic cosmology, there are persons associated with everything, as ultimately everything is personal. In the sense that, for instance, rain is a natural process involving water, heat of the sun, evaporation, wind patterns, and so on, but according to the Vedas, there are persons overseeing and in charge of all natural events and processes in the universe. It’s not “automatic” in the sense of a mindless machine.
Okay, back to Kundalini. This subtle energy can be brought up via very stringent yogic methods and techniques - I call it “technical yoga”. It is very, very difficult, generally requires many years of prolonged effort which include fasting, strict and absolute celibacy (except for that left handed tantra which is really black arts), abstenance from all flesh foods, intoxication, and strict isolation from “normal” worldly interactions. Primarily hatha yoga asanas, various bodily purification methods and very strong pranayam or breathing exercises as well as meditations using mantras are necessary for awakening the Kundalini energy.
The idea of mass gatherings of people being able to experience Kundalini energy is laughable. Just laughable.
Second, the Kundalini energy is not necessary for spiritual perfection, this is clear from the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads and the Puranas. It is a minor detail, and is actually often a side track, a dead end. Even when accomplished perfectly (which is extremely difficult and rarely achieved), this energy cannot grant spiritual perfection. The most it can grant is moksha, or the experience of God’s light, not His person in fullness.
Additionally, even such practitioners are warned that during the process of raising the Kundalini energy, many temptations and failures can arise, causing a person to imagine they are God, or a great demigod, or perfected being, when they obviously are not so. People who misuse, misunderstand or otherwise cannot handle this energy can go insane or become false gurus or teachers. Experiencing even a bit of this energy often engenders great pride, thus causing instant falldown into deep illusion. Without proper guidance or following strictly the traditional methods, there are other dangers as well, such as possession by asuric (demoniac) entities.
Trying to experience Kundalini energy is not the path of devotion to God, it is not even given much importance or stress in any of the Vedas, and the reason it is so “popular” now is it appeals to those who want to be thought or think of themselves as “spiritual” without having to have God be the Supreme Person.
I know this is quite difficult subject matter. To summarize:
1. Kundalini energy is real.
2. Experiencing the Kundalini energy can at best (which is very, very, rarely achieved because it is so difficult) give a glimpse or even more rarely immersion in the ocean of Light which is the Light emanating from the Godhead, but can never grant experience of God Himself.
For example, even among many thousands of such practitioners who seriously follow the methods, maybe one may experience even a glimpse of the spiritual light of God.
3. The path of seeking Kundalini energy is fraught with pitfalls and dangers, what to speak of failure.
4. It is not recommended in the Vedas and is a very minor and insignificant part of Vedic teachings.
5. For some reason, it has become very popular in the west, but most often very misunderstood and very rarely can even be seriously practiced.
One more final point - for a sincere and serious Kundalini yoga practitioner, once such a person actually experiences the Light of God, he will then seek the source of the Light, and become the humble servant of God, and leave the Kundalini practice behind.
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