[CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX CAUCUS] 3rd Luminous Mystery: Proclamation of the Kingdom (Patristic Rosary)

WDTPRS ^ | 10/8/2006 | Fr John Zuhlsdorf

[Kolokotronis]

“In fact, I hope you don’t mind me posting it here for the benefit of other folks.”

I am pleased you did. I was considering posting the article as a thread. I might anyway.

” It seems that the position forwarded in the GOARCH site actually contradicts this Church father. Is the English translation defective, or am I reading one of the two incorrectly?”

You probably read it correctly. It could very well be contradicting +John Chrysostomos. We do it every day when we call the Theotokos “Panagia” which roughly means someone who is ever sinless (all and always holy). +John Chrysostomos maintained that the BVM did in fact sin, using her actions at the Wedding Feast at Cana as an example.

The Fathers weren’t popes, m. They made mistakes. :)

[Salvation]

**So nuns can administer the Sacrament of Confession in the East?**

This is unorthodox. Christ gave ONLY the apostles (first priests and bishops) the right to forgive or retain sins. N

Why are people being led astray in this way?

[Salvation]

**So nuns can administer the Sacrament of Confession in the East?**

Even deacons aren’t authorized to hear Confessions. I don’t get this abnormality.

[Salvation]

For your perusal -- The Catechism of the Catholic Church on the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation -- especially about who can be the Minister of this Sacrament.

  

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SECOND EDITION

  ARTICLE 4: THE SACRAMENT OF PENANCE AND RECONCILIATION

          I. What Is This Sacrament Called?
         II. Why a Sacrament of Reconciliation after Baptism?
        III. The Conversion of the Baptized
         IV. Interior Penance
          V. The Many Forms of Penance in Christian Life
         VI. The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation
        VII. The Acts of the Penitent
       VIII. The Minister of This Sacrament
         IX. The Effects of This Sacrament
          X. Indulgences
         XI. The Celebration of the Sacrament of Penance
             IN BRIEF

[Kolokotronis]

“This is unorthodox.”

I assure you this has been true for 2000 years in the East.

[Kolokotronis]

“I don’t get this abnormality.”

In the East, it is not abnormal at all.

[Salvation]

Regardless of the length of time it has been practiced, Christ gave the abilities to forgive and retain sin to the apostles, the first priests and bishops.

I can’t see why anyone would be drawn to such practices.

Now if the women and unordained (including deacons) want to advertise this as merely a counseling session — I could accept this. But it is NOT the Sacrament of PENANCE!

[Salvation]

Glad I’m Catholic and not a Greek Orthodox — I would never approach a woman or unordained person — only a priest.

[Kolokotronis]

Thank-you for the link to the catechism. What it says stands in rather stark contrast to what the Orthodox Church teaches about confession as set forth in the GOARCH link mom posted earlier.

It’s good that we see and understand these very basic differences in praxis and theology, especially since they are not matters of dogma and thus might not be noticed in the enthusiastic rush we seem to be seeing toward reunion.

[Kolokotronis]

“Glad I’m Catholic and not a Greek Orthodox — I would never approach a woman or unordained person — only a priest.”

Really!!!!!!!!!!!!! The holiest people I have ever met are all monastics. I’d far prefer to go to confession to a wise monastic “Spiritual Olympian”, than to the average parish priest. In Greece and indeed throughout the Orthodox world, people will travel hundreds, even thousands of miles to go to confession to a holy spiritual father or mother in a monastery or hermitage.

[Salvation]

But many monks are ordained priests. We had two come and say Mass for us this last week from the local Abbey while our priest was at the Archdiocesan Convocation of Priests.

[Kolokotronis]

“Regardless of the length of time it has been practiced, Christ gave the abilities to forgive and retain sin to the apostles, the first priests and bishops.”

Well, to bishops, who in turn authorize priests and in the East as they always have, others. The length of time this has been done may indeed have some relevance since the very oldest order for Confession is not Western but Eastern It is from Patriarch John the Faster (Constantinople) and dates from the 6th century, or so it is claimed. It was put together from manuscripts found in a monastery at the Holy Mountain by St. Nicodemos the Hagiorite and is called Exomologetarion or Manual of Confession.

“But it is NOT the Sacrament of PENANCE!”

You particular church disagrees with you, S.

[Kolokotronis]

“But many monks are ordained priests.”

In the East, very few monks are also ordained as priests, but they do exist. All Orthodox monastics are, by the way, celibate. We occasionally have a “priest monk” or an “Archimandrite” preside at the Divine Liturgy at our parish as a fill in if the priest is away. In fact, I can remember two who acted as the parish priest for varying terms. That, however, is not at all common.

[Salvation]

**“But it is NOT the Sacrament of PENANCE!”**

I was talking about the people in the rite of whom you are speaking.

When I hit the post button on that I realize I jumped from one thought to another and that it would be misunderstood.

Minds move faster than fingers sometimes. LOL!

[Kolokotronis]

“I was talking about the people in the rite of whom you are speaking.”

So was I. The Roman Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox sacrament of penance. And that sacrament for us is very often done with a non-ordained person.

Or am I still misunderstanding you?

[maryz]

Regardless of the length of time it has been practiced, Christ gave the abilities to forgive and retain sin to the apostles, the first priests and bishops.

I think the apostles are considered the first bishops, though they were also priests!

In any case, Christ conferred the authority on the bishops -- as the Church. He didn't go into the practical details of how that authority should be exercised. One imagines that in a community of a few hundred, the bishop could hear all the confessions. Even in the West, priests have the authority only as derived from the bishop (with some exceptions).

It seems to me we heard in high school that in the very early Church (first few years or decades?), the practice was for public confession (I assume "public" in the sense of the Christian community, not the world at large), with public penance frequently required. I don't know what "formula" might have been used or who spoke what words and, if it's known, I'm unaware of it.

[Kolokotronis]

“It seems to me we heard in high school that in the very early Church (first few years or decades?), the practice was for public confession (I assume “public” in the sense of the Christian community, not the world at large), with public penance frequently required.”

Public confession was the practice for hundreds of years, probably for the first millennium, though for “secret sins” there were rare “secret confessions”.

I think the link to O Gladsome Light (Phos Ilaron) is more interesting. Imagine a hymn in use today which expresses the earliest Christian form of praise and understanding of an attribute of God...that +Basil the Great called the most ancient of hymns and that we still use to this very day!

[philothei]

As I understand it from conversations with my monastic mentor some nuns are blessed to hear the confessions of their spiritual children (not just anyone) but the penitent must still receive absolution from a priest.

[Salvation]

the nuns (and all priests that I know of) have a spiritual Advisor.

You are correct. Those nuns still need to seek the Sacrament of Penance.