Posted on 09/29/2010 3:05:05 PM PDT by zippythepinhead
While teaching about the resurrection of the dead, Paul uses the doctrine of baptism for the dead to stress his point.
(Elsie uses COLOR to stress his.)
1 Cor 29
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
THEY ain't US. Paul is talking about folks OTHER than the followers of Christ.
Not for SALVATION.
[Godzilla hisses]
shooting spitballs stormy and missing. Paul uses an exclusive term "THEY" here, not an inclusive term like 'us', 'we' etc as
[Stourme amusedly states]
You want to know the real difference between my LDS doctrine and your evangelical doctrine is? I don't have to quibble over pronouns to justify it. I don't have ignore 95% of the Bible so I can sleep at night.
1. We are indeed saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. There is no other way into heaven.
2. Jesus will decide who gets His grace by judging our works.
It's a very simple equation. The books of the Bible explain this. The prophets explain it. Evangelicals ignore it.
Jesus said: Matthew 7: 20-21 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. By judging their works you shall know them. And only those that *do* the will of my Father shall enter the kingdom of heaven. This is instruction given by Jesus Himself. Latter-day Saints teach Jesus' doctrine. Evangelicals ignore it. James said: James 2: 17-20 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Faith alone has no meaning to God. If you don't have the works to go along with the faith you claim to have...in God's eyes you have no faith. It's about the easiest doctrine explained in the Bible. Latter-day Saints teach the same doctrine that James taught. Evangelicals ignore it. This is one of the many reasons I left evangelical christianity. If God truly was working through evangelicals He would be giving them greater insight into His kingdom and greater insight into His truths. But they have nothing. It's a hollow belief system that denies the scriptures. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see them quibbling over pronouns, you'd seen them adopting truth. -Stourme
Laudanum and Peregoric
Get yer Hail Marys ready!
Oh, come use different colors beside green and blue.
Or, as Twain recommended: read the Book of MORMON.
All the prayers I can for a dipstick on another thread that I cannot get to back down...
The first instance of the Book of Life is here:
Psalms 69:27-28
27. Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation.
28. May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Next, Jesus says THIS to His discioples:
Luke 10:20
However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
In refering to BELIEVERS, Book of Life is further mentioned here:
Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Finally, John reveals the BoL here:
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.Revelation 13:8
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.Revelation 17:8
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
And now the judgement; of ALL mankind...
Revelation 20:11-15
11. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
1. We are indeed saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. There is no other way into heaven.
2. Jesus will decide who gets His grace by judging our works.
#1 is true, but #2 is some truth but contains the leven of falsehood. So Stourme's problem and in fact the problem of all of Mormonism is, that which is earned is not a gift.
Mormons assume they can cause Jesus to owe them His Grace. Additionally, when Mormons seek to have their works determine the worthiness for His Grace, they assume they are greater than the most brilliant demon ever to exist.
Satan will always defeat the godless soul seeking to earn God's Grace. And that's why God's Grace in Christ Jesus isn't something a person can earn, and once God accounts someone delivered from their sins it is His integrity which brings it to pass so satan cannot defeat God's Grace in Christ Jesus.
The Mormon way would make possible satan defeating God's Grace. Thanks be to God, that is Mormon error, not mormonic wisdom.
Works and Grace/Grace and Works:
once a dead spirit is made alive by God's Holy Spirit coming into the human spirit, the life lived thereafter will be a glory to Jesus as the born again allows the Holy Spirit to lead them. Those 'works of righteousness' are to His glory not stourme's glorification, because stourme cannot earn the Grace and certianly proved unable to live righteously else he would not need God's Grace.
Matthew 7:21 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
And does the Bible tell us what it is that God requires? Why yes it does! John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Now stourme, do you see where Jesus said to follow the Temple ordinances, and wear the sacred underwear, and drink no coffee, and have multiple wives, and live a sinless life, and ask Joseph Smith for entry into Heaven, and then Jesus will grant that you have done the work that God requires and can have God's Grace?
[Stourme condescends]
[Stourme smiles]
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. I'm really happy that you like my posting style. You're welcome.
[CommerceComet repeats]
Look at the pronouns. Prior and subsequent to this verse, Paul uses the inclusive pronoun "us" and in this verse he uses the exclusive pronoun "they". He's making the point that even the pagans among the Corinthians believe in the resurrection of the dead while separating himself from the practice of the baptism of the dead.
[Stourme responds]
Yes yes yes this feeble explanation is all over the evangelical apologetics sites. More quibbling over pronouns. The apologist make the leap, even going back to Homer to find some reference of someone doing a baptism in order to discount this doctrine. Why? Because evangelicals don't know anything about it. The question is being asked ... so they have to come up with something.
Evangelicals are pulling a Bill Clinton.. it depends on what is, is....
The real influence the pagans had on the Christians of Corinth was that they began to deny the resurrection. So it doesn't make sense that Paul would then reference that influence as part of his correction when trying to correct the doctrine.
But...Evangelical apologist have to come up with something. Baptism for the dead is truly a beautiful thing. It allows the living to do a good work by being obedient to the commandments and by acting on faith. To God there is no real difference between the living and the dead. Because the afterlife is not a fairy tale and God is real and there is a plan for us all.
It is difficult for me to see the difference so the conversations you are having are not making sense. Thanks.
[Stourme contemplates]
(Yes..I'm choosing to pass up the obvious retort)
Well... I chose this style for easy of reading...
1. My text is in Blue.
2. Who I'm responding too is in black italics
3. Green is for scripture quotes
4. Burgundy is for special notes.
Sorry if it bothers you... let me work on it. :-)
And does the Bible tell us what it is that God requires? Why yes it does! John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[snip all MHGinTN being MHGinTN stuff]
[Stourme calmly states]
Here's some Evangelicals that actually get it.
You found us out, we have a works bit as well...
Stourme like all Pseudo Christian movements you, either by design or misunderstanding, just don't get the works thing.
(I know by practice as an organization it is intentional, because works based salvation is a great control tool.)
But like all such folk you get it backwards.
The Bible clearly says by Grace we are saved.
Period.
It is BECAUSE of that salvation and having Christ in our hearts that we WANT to do the works God directs us to. Not to earn his favor, for we have that simply by accepting the gift. Again a fact VERY clearly defined in the Bible, I won't insult you or the audience with endless scripture posted ad nauseum on these thread.
The very point of Christ coming was to STOP the effort of “earning” heaven. That was what the OT was all about, what can I do to please God and gain heaven.
The sacrifice of Christ fixed that. Keep works as part of the salvation equation and you negate the sacrifice.
Now does that toss works on the junk pile, no. We are saved so we work. We can use our work to gage our acceptance of Christ as well as our spiritual well being. If we falter or do things contrary to Christ we know the Evil One is working us, trying to take us away from God. We can also see when our Brother falters and come to his aid. It is also through our efforts that our faith is made “perfect’, meaning it grows and becomes more a part of us, but it doesn't mean we get a “better heaven” if we work harder, it is a personal thing, a personal goal to be closer to God. There is no running total, no “after all we can do”, no master check list.
Go back to that link you provided about “Evangelicals who get it” and look over it again. Two things to look at, what they are really saying about the role of works, both for the individual as well as an example to others, but also look for what is missing.
Any reference to works as being any part of the equation of Salvation...
When one understand this order, Salvation then works because of being saved, then verses that support salvation through grace and dismiss works for salvation as well as those on the merits of doing works anyways fit together nicely.
BTW I know you will have to spin this, use your little brackets and such and make snide comments with in them as well as part of any response, then accuse me of doing so, but the information is more for the reasoned lurker and perhaps, down in the core, it will enlighten you as well...
Well, I certainly would not call him perfect. He was human. However, judging by the fact that he is a product of the Nineteenth Century and what I know of his statements of the time of his life. I would answer no.
If you judge by today’s politically correct standards, which is usually not the best way to go, then you could say Brigham was a bigot.
The danger with judging a man of a different time, with somewhat different life experiences and values, you end up with a distorted truth of the character of the man.
By today’s standards Abraham Lincoln could be labled a bigot based on his views of blacks at his time. He was for abolition, but not all at once. He proposed a gradual emancipation prior to the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation only freed some slaves, not all at the time of the enactment. So historically we have to judge people by the times in which they lived, life experiences, and general views between the races at the time in question to define “bigot.”
I follow Christ and Joseph Smith. We can play semantics with words, but why bother?
Jesus Christ is my Savior and Redeemer. Joseph Smith was a Prophet of the Savior.
So for you to try to define my heart is a futile attempt because you don’t know my heart or mind. Moreover, you don’t know my relationship with Christ. Jesus loves us both. See John 3:16 for further details.
Only because I am human. I never said I intend dishonesty.
All LDS Scripture is sacred to me from the Bible to the Pearl of Great Price. All are the “Word” and are of God. Heck I personally like a good portion of the Apocrypha.
Yes you rang?
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