No, what's laughable is trying to shoe-horn the notion of Legal Accountability in the Courts, into the doctrine of Original Sin.
Sorry, but whether the Courts set the Age of Majority for Legal Purposes at 12, 16, 18, or 21 really has nothing to do with whether or not All Men have inherited Original Sin (we all have).
I’m actually one of those “free-willers,” however I don’t agree with the doctrine of Infant Damnation... for the reasons listed in my previous post.
Well, it's not surprising that you would reject this particular aspect of Wesley's free-will teachings. Free-Willer Theology certainly gets more repugnant to the Christian, the better one understands its inherently-Satanic nature.
Besides, if free-will does NOT exist then of what value is love?.... Put in simplest terms, the very act of [voluntary] ‘worship’ which you yourself employ in giving thanks to God is an affirmation of free-will because it would be a useless & valueless act if you did not have [at least some manner of] control over it [by exercising] your own will.
Your referencing the Regenerate nature of the Christian, whose Free Will now enjoys the indwelling of the Holy Spirit rectifying his sinful desires.
Not so the Free Will of the Unregenerate.
See, Calvinists do not deny the existence of Free Will. Rather, Calvinists state that since the Fall, Unregenerate Men (which is all of us, prior to God's regeneration of our dead spirits) freely choose to Reject God, because that is what Unregenerate, Spiritually-dead Men want to do.
What would be heretical would be the suggestion that any Unregenerate Man would ever freely choose to Follow God while yet in their Spiritually-Dead condition; because the Bible clearly states that while a man is yet Spiritually-Dead his desires are Totally Depraved:
And so, while yet in his Spiritually-Dead state, the Unregenerate Man will always freely choose to Reject God. This is the express teaching of the Bible:
To suggest, therefore, that Men will freely choose to Follow God while yet in their Unregenerate State, is to preach the lie of Satan: that Fallen Men are not really Spiritually Dead, and will still sometimes freely choose to perform God-Pleasing actions. "Ye shall not surely die".
Thus, we as Calvinists understand that Men only freely choose to Follow God, after they have been Quickened unto Spiritual Life by the Efficacious Grace of God.
Calvinists do not deny Free Will.
Rather, we simply affirm that Fallen Man REALLY IS Spiritually Dead. And that while a Fallen Man remains Unregenerate, he will always freely choose to Reject God, because that is what he Naturally wants to do.
Thus, only those whom God chooses to Regenerate unto Spiritual Life, do thence freely choose to Follow Him.
..and yet Jesus taught the opposite of that.
>Thus, only those whom God chooses to Regenerate unto Spiritual Life, do thence freely choose to Follow Him.
I have serious doubt about this sort of reasoning, it is far too circular in nature.
It reminds me of a scene in an anime called Berserk wherein there are these ‘monster eggs’ [for lack of a better term] which protect their carriers from mortal harm (and to some extent bring ‘good-fortune’) yet, in return, cause their possessors to turn into [literal] monsters. The guy explaining this to the character who had one of these ‘eggs’ cited his merely being there alive and well as proof of his ‘good fortunes’ and his ‘desire’ to rise to greatness as proof of the evil within him. {Keep in mind that this has a large amount of basis in Eastern Philosophy wherein the Temporal Authorities had “The Mandate of Heaven” and *any* rebellion/usurpation/ambition could be viewed in the negative-light of going against heaven & therefore evil.}
So you see, the character was evil because he went against “the mandate of heaven” as evidenced by the fact that only the evil would go against ‘the mandate of heaven’. I bring this up partially because there is some similar modes-of-thought in Christendom: that “render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s” means [in effect] “anything that Caesar claims as his own is his own by virtue of his authority in saying that it is his own.” (Such ideology ignores and excludes the possibility that “the mandate of heaven” may change; that God may take from one He had established and instead establish another — Clearly refuted by the stories of Kings Saul and David.) In fact King Saul had his kingdom taken away precisely because he *DID* use his authority to claim [the right of] an authority not given him: sacrificing.
>>Besides, if free-will does NOT exist then of what value is love?.... Put in simplest terms, the very act of [voluntary] ‘worship’ which you yourself employ in giving thanks to God is an affirmation of free-will because it would be a useless & valueless act if you did not have [at least some manner of] control over it [by exercising] your own will.
>
>Your referencing the Regenerate nature of the Christian, whose Free Will now enjoys the indwelling of the Holy Spirit rectifying his sinful desires.
>
>Not so the Free Will of the Unregenerate.
If man has no free-will when he is unregenerate, then how can he have free-will when he is regenerate? Your theology completely excludes the possibility of man working with God in the world (while I agree that God has no need for man, and man has EVERY need for God), if so then why would God reserve “good works” for Christians to do if their involvement was not significant in some sense?
>See, Calvinists do not deny the existence of Free Will. Rather, Calvinists state that since the Fall, Unregenerate Men (which is all of us, prior to God’s regeneration of our dead spirits) freely choose to Reject God, because that is what Unregenerate, Spiritually-dead Men want to do.
[...]
>And so, while yet in his Spiritually-Dead state, the Unregenerate Man will always freely choose to Reject God. This is the express teaching of the Bible:
> * “Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil” (Jer. 13:23).
> * “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom. 8:7-8)
Then please explain Genesis 5:21-24 (NIV) which says:
“When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.”
How could Enoch walk with God (who cannot abide unrighteousness) unless, as Amos 3:3 says, “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?”
Implicit there is the “with one another.” This was before Jesus, Moses, or even the Flood.
>To suggest, therefore, that Men will freely choose to Follow God while yet in their Unregenerate State, is to preach the lie of Satan: that Fallen Men are not really Spiritually Dead, and will still sometimes freely choose to perform God-Pleasing actions. “Ye shall not surely die”.
Well then you are saying things in circles: a man cannot choose to follow God until he is regenerate... and a man be regenerate until he follows God. Which you then try to ‘solve’ by saying that God “predestined” him to be saved, and therefore regenerated him, so that he could be saved so that he could be regenerated.
Now, I agree that God is not bound by time/space, and I do believe that a lot of ‘destiny’/’chance’ depends on the point of view. Being a temporal being, I cannot really imagine what the timelessness God experiences is; if God were to take me to the end of time then everything would be history [by definition] and unchangeable [from that frame of reference] because it was the past... and if God placed me at the beginning of time then [from that frame of reference] nothing would have been written yet and so anything would be possible: like a author starting a book before the first line is written it could be a scifi story, a history, a romance, an adventure... anything at all, but as the author writes he constrains himself on what can possibly happen until he reached the end at which point it has all [literally] been written.
>To suggest, therefore, that Men will freely choose to Follow God while yet in their Unregenerate State, is to preach the lie of Satan: that Fallen Men are not really Spiritually Dead, and will still sometimes freely choose to perform God-Pleasing actions. “Ye shall not surely die”.
To suggest that man cannot by his own free-will choose to follow God, even in the unregenerate state, is to preach the lie of Satan: you are not responsible for your actions. For if free-will is limited, then it is by definition not free.
Or would you say that the Chaldeans, brutal heathens brought upon Israel as punishment had no choice in the matter? And if they had no choice in the matter, how could a Just God punish them for it?