Posted on 09/08/2010 10:35:01 PM PDT by bibletruth
Predestination...is it Biblical... or is it a doctrine of Beelzebub (devil)
It is evident that some shun from predestination, some even lay it at the hands of Beelzebub (devil). There are Scripture in the Gospels and also from the Words of God (Christ being The Word) that illuminate this subject. Let's first look at God's Word (ie, Jesus Christ being The Word) in Ephesians 1:4-5; 11
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Now if Almighty God and The Word of God, Christ Jesus, has: hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world...Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
Is this Word of God superceded by the the Gospels? The same Word of God authored both the Gospels and Romans thru Revelation! God's counsel and will are not limited to only the Gospel; God is not limited by anything regarding HIS counsel and will.
How then can it be said that this doctrine of predestination be called a horrible distortion of the Gospel. Is that what we accuse God of? God forbid!
If we ONLY APPLY doctrine from the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), then we must be measured by what Jesus said in the flesh. In the Gospels we find that there is no mention regarding the Words of Christ using "predestination". But Jesus did say: ask, seek, find, knock...
Therefore: Is Christ's words only valid in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John? Is not Paul a minister of Christ? We must be careful what we deny as Christ's Words. No matter where Christ, The Word of God, said something to believer, it remains the Word of God, equal no matter where it is said.
Furthermore, based upon the Gospels account ALONE and NO OTHER DOCTRINE, if we believe that "predestination" does not exist because Jesus Christ never spoke about it in the Gospels; then that position we hold must align together with our life walk together with the Gospels account when someone disagreed on something Christ said; and doing this we then say as do the Pharisees said in Matthew 12:24:
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Now how is this possible to say as did the Pharisees, that Christ has a Beelzebub devil? This happens when someone orders their life by the Gospels ALONE; rather than incorporate all the doctrines which Christ Jesus, The Word of God, spoke and communicated to other apostles other than the original 12 [And Paul was not one of the 12, he could not qualify as one of the 12; more on that in another post].
Jesus Christ communicated doctrine regarding "predestination" to the Apostle Paul; and if someone shall deny this fact, then Jesus Christ knows your thoughts if you adhere to "predestination" as a doctrine of devils:
Therefore, you must live by the Gospels: Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Therefore, anyone who denies Christ Words in Acts - Revelation, especially Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will; these same shall have their kingdom divided against itself and brought to desolatation...[warning] a city or house divided against itself shall not stand. If you stand by your Gospels ALONE, then you must stand by those things Christ says in the Gospels; and what you and the Pharisees both have laid claim to Christ Jesus: that HE has a devil, even Beelzebub!
If anyone persists that the doctrine of Pre-destination is truly of the Devil....and that it totally discounts all of those commands of Christ. Then I ask: Is the Word of Christ / Word of God ONLY found inside the Gospels alone, and not in Acts thru Revelation; Genesis thru Malachi?.
I ask: Are we only to live in the flesh by following Jesus in the flesh and only via the Gospels? What is the result of following Jesus in the flesh?
Jesus said in Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
You see, Christ said: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If someone tries to follow Christ in the flesh, then he must be a Jewish follower, not a Christian believer today.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Galatians 3:1 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh (Christ in the flesh as only found in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John)?
God dealing with men today is not limited to the flesh, observing all things that Christ spoke about to the 12 apostles.
God does not instruct us ONLY in the following the Gospels; for why else does HIS Son, Christ Jesus, communicate to other apostles and men of God throughout Romans to Revelation.
We cannot be made perfect by the flesh [and Law], that is, following Christ Jesus in the flesh of HIS earthly ministry! Christ said: I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That was HIS purpose in the Gospels.
I don’t understand the argument you are attacking, that “predestination” is considered “of Satan” by some. I’ve never heard Christians say such things, regardless of their take on predestination. You have a straw man, there.
However, I do not believe that simply because God predestined His People to come to Him, that it means God doesn’t Will all to follow Him.
Not even God gets everything He wants. Since he can control everything by choice, this is also His choice. So there is Free Will here, as well.
Please excuse my ignorance. This issue has always confused me. What is your opinion re: Augustinian philosophy?
Thats some answer.
Boy, you surely have a small God (one who does not get everything He wants...). If God does not get everything He wants, that is a pithy kind of god that is NOT an Almighty GOD!
Contrast that with what GOD Almighty said to Isaiah:
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Now that demonstrates a God, my God, who can proper in anything where to HE sends it. That is not a small god with unattainable things...
Unconditional election is the accurate doctrine that is evident that God's choice from eternity (predestination) of those whom HE will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people, no "free will"; therefore, GOD DOES get everything that HE wants. Because of HIS WILL nobody can resist, and it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy and grace alone, not on man's effort to show God how good we are and deserving we are to be saved (free will approach). The approach give man a upper hand in instructing God to choose him.
Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
yeah, and his answer is false doctrine that God cannot always get things He wants...
The doctrine of pre-destination is a horrible distortion of the Gospel. [Quote from a fool]
That person is NOT a Christian, for he/she was in effect saying to the Glorified Christ Jesus that there is not such thing as "predestination". That was foolish; so I showed Scripture evidence in Ephesians 1 to show that Christ communicated to Paul regarding predestination.
This is not a straw man argument; there is a real fool on this religious thread that believes that predestination is of the devil (which is exactly what the Pharisees falsely accused Christ as having...Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
So since I am In Christ, and Christ and the GodHead all dwell in my soul; this person was laying false claim that the doctrine of predestination is of the Beelzebub (devil). Therefore, I am setting the Biblical record straight.
Augustinian philosophy... my theology is rightly dividing the Word of Truth. I read many theologies, and I learn valuable lessons from many, but I do not hold only to Augustinian theology...I do not hold to free will since there are many scripture evidence to show that God is in complete control in all events on earth and heaven, and that we as believers are called to HIS glory, not by any works of which I can perform. Otherwise, it is not fully of HIS glory and mercy, if I should perform some good work which God sees in eternity past and then says to Himself: that man deserves to be saved, I will call him. That is false, I have no part in my grace salvation except that I responded to the free grace of God’s salvation message once long ago. And I believed. And I am save by grace, not of works, least any man should boast. I only boast in the cross of Christ, and Him crucified.
Did God want Lucifer to fall? Really, he gave us free will so that we might delight in His Countenance. He allowed Lucifer to maek the decisions that led to his fall.
There is an easier logic for some to follow regarding ‘predestination’.
The question is how can we be predestined to any outcome if God gave us free will?
Would not our ability to exercise free will to make a choice and then change our minds multiple times preclude the possibility of ‘predestination’?
The answer lies in the nature of God (as far as our limited understanding can comprehend).
1. God is eternal.
2. God is omnipotent (all powerful).
3. God is omniscient (all knowing).
Therefore:
God, being omniscient, has perfect knowledge of the past, present, and future. God knows what choices we have made, are making, and will make - no matter how many times we change our mind and choose differently which God freely allows us to do.
And since God is also omnipotent, He sometimes creates conditions and circumstances for some to make choices that he knows they will make which accomplishes His will. He already knows who will choose to do His will and thus sets forth those conditions and circumstances for them to do so.
Thus, to deny ‘predestination’ is illogical.
To deny that we have ‘free will’ is also illogical.
To deny that we have ‘free will’ is to believe that God “preselected” those that would accept Him and those that would reject Him.
In other words, it would be like someone playing a game of chess against himself, moving each chess-piece on one side and then the other. For us, such an exercise can be instructional and a way to improve our skills.
But there is no need for this for a God that is both omnipotent and omniscient. It would be totally boring and senseless.
It would also mean that ‘Satan’ is nothing more than a chess-piece that can do nothing other than what God directs him to do.
And, it would mean that we can not choose God over Satan or vice-versa, since that choice would have already been made for us.
I admit that the purpose or reason for such “preselection” may be beyond our limited comprehension, but then the question remains ‘why?’
Great points. Here’s my take on this subject.
GOD, who knows the end from the beginning, saw before the world existed every humanbeing that would ever live.
HE saw who would choose to love HIM and who would reject HIM. HE saw the pain that HE would have over those who rejected HIM, but also saw the Love HE would have from those who would choose to love HIM and decided to go ahead with HIS plan fully knowing that HE would have to bear our sins and pay our debt to make us whole again. HE loves us that much.
We still have the freedom to choose who we will serve, but GOD knows the full number of the Gentile believers and Jewish believers of all the covenants from Adam to whoever is the last human that will ever live. So HE is patient with us, not wanting any to perish, but wanting all to repent, but the time is getting short, very short.
You know Augustine asserted the existence of free will right? He even called those who deny free will “in error”:
Read his letters to Valentius:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102214.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102215.htm
Suppose a mom has her 3 year old daughter help her bake cookies. Does that imply any loss of the mother’s sovereignty? Any loss of the mother’s parental authority? Can we say that the mother is not getting what she wants? Can we say the mother isn’t in control of the process from the very start?
Does the daughter not have the option of participating joyfully and creatively, or throwing a tantrum and flinging cookie dough all over the kitchen?
God IS completely sovereign, but He is not a robotic God who decides first, sets up the chess pieces, and then lets automatons run their course. He is a kind, loving Father who wants us to participate in our redemption—even while He remains completely in control of it.
The reaction against God being in control is negative predestination . . . some people are going to hell and it’s been predestined from the beginning of time. How is that just? Only if man chooses. Those that believe in predestination don’t deny man’s sinful choices however! I’ll leave it there, otherwise I’ll miss work trying to reinvent the theological wheel.
Just FYI, in typical usage, Beelzebub is regarded as one of the three top demons, along with Lucifer and Leviathan, but generally not thought of as the same entity as Lucifer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub
As an aside, Lucifer’s name is roughly translated as “Light-Bearer”, which is different from Obama, the latter calling himself the “Light Bringer”, which I’m sure is completely different. No hyphen, at least.
Predestination is a Biblical doctrine, but there are many who have philosophized by rational argument regarding predestination and have strayed from Scripture and sound Bible doctrine.
For example, the doctrine of double predestination is not Scriptural. One can make valid arguments for it and valid arguments against it, but Scripture never goes so far as to discuss it.
IMHO, it is easy to stray out of fellowship with God through faith in Christ, even in studying theology, then the Adversary may tempt one with false doctrines.
You should have given the credit to the Catholic Church, so that the people would know it was not a one man opinion, even if you are not a Catholic.
Predestination is most certainly referenced in the Gospels, from the mouth of Jesus.
Thomist and Molonist. There is no 100% on this issue for a Catholic since the church allows adherents to have either view.
Are you saying God does not want EVERYONE to follow Him? Scripture does not support you, if so.
If God only wants a small portion of humanity to ever respect Him, you have a sick god.
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