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To: HarleyD; D-fendr

HarleyD writes

On the contrary, this is EXACTLY what irresistible grace is about. Everyone is responsible for their own salvation. The Jews demonstrates the outward calling of God. The Jews are called to the wedding feast. Yet they will not come. Neither will the unbelieving Gentiles.

But here is what the passage says:

46And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

“’I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

It makes no mention at all and allows no inference that there was a secret ‘inner call’ that would be irresistible, and that the ‘outer call’ cannot be freely responded to by the Jews. There is no hint that God has refused to save the individual Jews in Antioch, and I seriously doubt that there were no Jews at all saved in Antioch. However, the Jews at Antioch, on the whole, rejected the offer of God. “you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life” - the total emphasis is on the Jews rejecting, not on God refusing to allow them or not giving them a call.

HarleyD mentions the wedding feast, and the calling to it.

Matt 22 tells the story:

“2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.’ 5But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.”

Notice the call went to the individuals, who chose to reject it. The King didn’t send them faulty invitations, or leave them the wrong address. They were too busy to accept. “But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them.” There is no hint that the invitation was at fault, but that the recipients CHOSE to refuse. Again, no hint that there is a secret, irresistible invitation given behind the scenes.

In Acts 13, we see the first instance of the Gospel going to Gentiles. Cornelius was a believing Gentile. Before Peter visited him, he is described as “a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God”, and the angel says, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter.” Cornelius was no run-of-the-mill Gentile.

But the Gentiles in Antioch were. And in verse 47, right before the proof text of 13:48, we read, “For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “’I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

The verse immediately before is about the calling of God going to the Gentiles as well, and THEN we read, “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.” And when the Gentiles heard this - that God had commanded Paul & Barnabas, “’I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth’” - they began rejoicing.

Salvation and the grace of God that Paul & Barnabas had been preaching were not just to the Jews, but to the Gentiles as well.

The word translated appointed (tasso) means “to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint” - either “on one’s own responsibility or authority” or “mutually, i.e. agree upon”. It is used 8 times, all of which are listed here: (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5021&t=ESV)

If you believe in a deterministic God who, as my Sunday School teacher had it last year, ‘decides if you wipe your nose’, then yes, God had to determine and appoint individuals to respond...but that is bringing your belief to the verse, and then using the verse to back up your belief. And I can do the same thing. God had determined to offer salvation, to the Jews first and also the Gentiles - a pattern we see in the rest of Acts, as Paul would first seek out the Jews, and only later go to the Gentiles of a city. And God had ordered this in verse 47 - that salvation would also go to the Gentiles, and in verse 48 the Gentiles rejoice.

Bringing my beliefs to the verse, as HarleyD did, I find that God ordained the Gentiles to be saved as well, and that the message should go first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. And if it was mutually agreed, then the Gentiles would be saved.

In favor of my interpretation, I offer the rest of Acts. This is the only time we see tasso applied to a story of conversion, and it only occurs when the Gentiles, for the very first time, are offered salvation. And it occurs immediately after the Jews made the choice - as did the wedding feast guests in Matt 22 - to refuse the offer of the King.

If you go to this link (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4100&t=ESV), you will find the the “246 times in 218 verses in the Greek concordance of the NASB” that the word pisteuo (believe: “to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in”) is used. I made no attempt to filter it...in a fairly short time, you can read all 218 verses. When I first encountered Calvinism last year, I read them all. And I concluded that believing is something we are ordered to do, and something that comes from us in response to God’s revelation. There is no hint that a man will ever, on his own, sit down and reason out God and decide to approach God thru his own desire. But God takes the initiative and reaches out to man, and man can either say yes or no. There is no hint that believing is something God makes us do irresistibly, or that anyone who hears the Gospel is incapable of responding. The individual is always responsible for how he responds to God. Mark 9 has it how I believe it normally happens: “And Jesus said to him, “’If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.” Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”

Acts 13:48 is one of perhaps a half dozen verses that, at first glance, seems to say God decides who repents and who does not. So I have to choose: Do I read those half dozen in light of the 218 others, or read the 218 others in light of the half dozen? I was taught to interpret the Bible using the obvious to explain the obscure, rather than the obscure to explain the obvious - a rule I believe Augustine taught. And one can expand that list by looking at the word faith, and how it is used in hundreds of verses.

If there were 200 verses discussing how God picks individuals for salvation as opposed to a call going out to groups and ‘whosoever’, and only a dozen discussing a choice to believe, then I would be a Calvinist. But that isn’t what I find in scripture.


1Co 1:19-25 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Now if everyone had a choice, as some suppose, these verses make no sense. — Harley D

I have to disagree. I believe everyone has a choice, and it makes perfect sense to me. If God had decided to save those who worked hard and scored above 65% in the test of life, many would take the offer. It would be focused on them earning God’s approval. If God decided to save those who were the most successful in business, many would gladly take the offer. But God offers the gift of salvation to the whosoevers, and only requires that we take Him at His word. That is a huge stumbling block. It puts the focus on God, not man - and man doesn’t like that.

“There are people who God simply refuses to help, according to His good council and His plan. Why He helps one out and not another is a mystery. “

There is a fair bit of truth here. God gives his grace to all, but not in equal measure. A person raised in a Christian home is more likely to hear the Gospel than someone in the jungle. As with asking about infants, there is a point where we need to trust God to do what is right, to know what he is doing, and to accept that a just, holy, and loving God is capable of dealing with people in a manner consistent with who He is.

But I’m not so certain that God refuses to help. Paul wrote, “12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” (Romans 2)

I think God gives His grace and revelation as He wills, but He also judges by the revelation each has. That is a guess, not a well thought out theological principle on my part. I’ve met a number of non-believers who will ‘what if’ things to death - literally. Their scenarios are excuses for refusing to deal with the revelation God has given them, and they will be judged accordingly. But to those who respond to what God has provided...well, those who have will be given more, and those that have not will lose what they have. If someone shows a willingness to know God, based on however much God has given him, then I believe God will give him more, and judge by whatever he has been given, so that “their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”


5,933 posted on 09/18/2010 7:35:56 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (When the ass brays, don't reply...)
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To: Mr Rogers; D-fendr
It makes no mention at all and allows no inference that there was a secret ‘inner call’ that would be irresistible, and that the ‘outer call’ cannot be freely responded to by the Jews.

Who brings about godly grief? Who brings about repentance? How does faith come? Who opens our ears to hear and our eyes to see? If you believe that you've manufacture your faith, then your right. But if you believe that your faith is a gift from God then your wrong. It's that simple. But we won't hash over where your faith comes from.

There are multiple incidences of the inward and outward calling of God. Would you say that Moses' calling was inward, outward or both? How about Saul, or Abraham, or Noah, or Cornelius? God saves us just as He has saved everyone in scripture. He reveals Himself to us.

Notice the call went to the individuals, who chose to reject it. The King didn’t send them faulty invitations, or leave them the wrong address. They were too busy to accept.

The question is why were they too busy to accept. Consider the following scripture:

They all heard Paul and the exact same message. Some mocked. Some ignored the message. And some believed. Can you explain why Paul's message had different responses?

If you believe in a deterministic God who...

This isn't about determinism. This is about the nature of man. Men hate the light and will not come to it. Adam hid because of his sin. Peter asked the Lord to leave because he was a sinful man. This is our nature. God seeks us out. We want to hide.

There is no hint that a man will ever, on his own, sit down and reason out God and decide to approach God thru his own desire. But God takes the initiative and reaches out to man, and man can either say yes or no.

It is presumptuous to think we can say "no" to God.

6,070 posted on 09/18/2010 3:49:04 PM PDT by HarleyD
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