From where sit, THAT would be the straw dog.
And it's important to distinguish between the proposition "reason errs" and "Man errs in his use of reason."
Most of us have seen the math proof demonstrating that 2 + 2 can equal 5.
I have not. I would like to.
I have seen these, what, advices not to depend on human reason, or that it doesn't apply in this or that sort of instance. But it seems that its inapplicability is alleged when reason seems to lead to a conclusion which is deemed problematic.
If I say "(1)Mary is the mother of Jesus; (2)Jesus is God; (3) Mary is the mother of God," and THEN somebody says that is leaning to my own understanding, or whatever the phrase is, how am to know when I am leaning to my own understanding and when not? What is the 'canon' and how is it applied?
Can anybody explain this? Can it be explained reasonably? These are real questions, I am not thinking three moves ahead. I just don't see how the case goes from your side.
Roamer_1 says, Human reason has it's place, no doubt, but that place is not in trying to discern the things of YHWH.
Is that statement a "thing of YHWH?"
It requires fractions and beer or imaginary numbers and beer. The constant is beer and I don't care for beer. I do like cheap champagne though.
What's more curious is how, if you cross your eyes correctly, 2+2=3
Isn't it odd that most of the theological arguing comes down to Protestants saying Catholics see more than what's there and Catholics saying Protestants see less than is there. At least we have beer... or cheap champagne.
imho, discucssing reason vs other than reason can be quickly very problematic, imprecise and hazardous.
Nevertheless . . . being typically over-eager to rush in where angels fear to tread . . .
here goes again. . . .
MD: From where sit, THAT would be the straw dog.
QX: I can understand that. However . . .
MD: And it’s important to distinguish between the proposition “reason errs” and “Man errs in his use of reason.”
QX: OF COURSE. So, let’s use “MAN ERRS IN HIS USE OF REASON.” However, that would include, for me, trying to load onto reason more than God designed it to bear.
Qx: Most of us have seen the math proof demonstrating that 2 + 2 can equal 5.
MD: I have not. I would like to.
QX: I faintly remember something about it but am far from a mathematician. Someone else will have to rise to that occasion. That was about 1960 or 1961 in Jr High, for me.
MD: I have seen these, what, advices not to depend on human reason, or that it doesn’t apply in this or that sort of instance. But it seems that its inapplicability is alleged when reason seems to lead to a conclusion which is deemed problematic.
QX: I can understand how it seems that way. That’s not my reality.
MD: If I say “(1)Mary is the mother of Jesus; (2)Jesus is God; (3) Mary is the mother of God,” and THEN somebody says that is leaning to my own understanding, or whatever the phrase is, how am to know when I am leaning to my own understanding and when not? What is the ‘canon’ and how is it applied?
QX: I think Angel-Gal does better at answering that. However, I’ll just note that SCRIPTURE INDICATES and my experience with SCRIPTURE AND HOLY SPIRIT IS THAT HOLY SPIRIT MANAGES QUITE WELL ENOUGH FOR GOD’S PURPOSES to direct those who keep their minds stayed on God sufficiently to get them growthfully through the day and closer to God.
QX: The persistent wail fromt he rabid clique type RC’s is that therefore, we are our own Pope’s we have splintered into more factions than the RCC [a veritable impossibility if ther ever was one, imho] etc. etc. etc.
QX: LIFE IS MESSY. Obsessive Compulsive RELIGIOUS types sheltered in various structures and cushioned by a thousand rituals Proddy or RC . . . are INCLINED to want things in tidy little boxes so they can predict and manipulate the little boxes and thereby delude themselves that they are manipulating God to their benefit.
QX: God doesn’t play those games. Yet, He also doesn’t zap the grid on the Skinner box immediately, very often. He takes His sweet time . . . letting us flaunch about and ponder and fuss and spew and flail our arms. Some of us think better than others. Some of us wise up sooner than others. Some of us hear Holy Spirit and obey him easier and quicker than others. It’s all pretty messy. And it takes more time than about any of us think proper.
QX: Still, it’s evidently God’s preferred way.
QX: 1. The messiness allows a greater amount of freedom in THE DANCE between Father and the individual. THE FATHER is teaching the Bride to pay attention to the LEADER in the dance . . . not the Bride’s presumptions, assumptions, predelictions, preferences, hobbies; reference group, congregation, Pastor, Pope, sensibilities etc. but to THE LEADER OF THE DANCE, OUR LORD.
QX: 2. With less messiness, we’d all become much more RELIGIOUS AUTOMOTONS PLUGGING OURSELVES INTO PRECISE RITUALS AND GETTING X DEGREE OF KOSHERNESS OF X LEVEL OF SPIRITUALITY OUT THE VENDING MACHINE’S OTHER END.
QX; 3. FATHER IS NOT ABOUT TO SUPPORT THAT KIND OF HOLLOW RELATIONSHIP AND HOLLOW “SPIRITUALITY.”
QX: 4. HE WANTS A LIVELY, SPONTANEOUS, RESURRECTION LIFE-FILLED, DANCE!
QX: 5. THAT MEANS, HE LEADS MOMENT BY MOMENT. WE FOLLOW MOMENT BY MOMENT—IN RAPT ATTENTION.
QX: 6. YET, IT’S A DANCE—TWO PARTNERS—WE ARE THRILLED WITH HIM—HE IS THRILLED WITH US. WE FOLLOW—HE LEADS US INTO OUR GREATER JOY IN HIM.
QX: 7. Reason can too quickly and too compulsively, too slavishly try and pin things down in such a way as to remove all the messy-ness of life and spirituality. I think at that point, . . . along those lines, those points, reason fails—more than fails—it can become a straight-jacket of horrific error, idolatry, blasphemy, heresy—in any/every congregation, denomination, religious organization of any and every kind.
QX: 8. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE GIVE UP AND THROW REASON IN THE DRINK—THAT’S ABSURD, TOO.
QX: 9. GOD ALSO SEEMS TO LIKE ALMOST INFINITE VARIETY. LOVE GOD WHOLLY. LOVE OTHERS AS SELF. DO UNTO OTHERS. THE VIRGIN BIRTH; CAME IN THE FLESH; DEATH SUBSTITUTIONARILY ON THE CROSS; SHED BLOOD FOR US; RESURRECTION AND HIS RESURRECTION LIFE FOR US. COMING AGAIN. WILL ALWAYS BE WITH US. WE WILL BE WITH HIM. THOSE ARE BASICS.
QX: 10. WALKING ALL THAT OUT; DANCING ALL THAT OUT . . . INDIVIDUALLY AND CORPORATELY IS MESSY. We stumble over our own feet. We step on others’ feet. We fall. We get picked up. We soar. We twirl around. We thrill at His heartbeat.
QX: 11. OF COURSE there will be great differences in execution. Even in perspectives and convictions ABOUT TRUTH.
QX: 12. THE PRIORITY IS FOCUS ON THE FATHER, ON OUR LORD. ON THE DANCE WITH HIM. ON THE RELATIONSHIP.
QX: 13. ALL ELSE IS GRIST FOR THE MILL, FODDER, CHAFF.
QX: 14. ANYTHING—WHICH DETRACTS, INTRUDES, INTERFERS WITH, DEGRADES, HINDERS, INTERLOPES INTO THAT DANCE, THAT FOCUS is hazardous at best.
QX: 15. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW LOGICALLY, HOW REASONABLY ARRIVED AT. ANYTHING WHICH INTRUDES ON THE DANCE IS HAZARDOUS AT BEST.
QX: 16. WELLLL HERE . . . YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN YOU’LL NEED ANOTHER PERFUME IN THIS DANCE—SO HERE’S A BACKPACK FULL. HERE, YOU MIGHT NEED ANOTHER CHANGE OF CAPE—INTO YOUR BACKPACK IT GOES.
HERE’S MOTHER TO RUN AROUND DABBING THE SWEAT FROM YOUR FOREHEAD AND REFRESHENING YOUR LIPSTICK IN THE MIDST OF THE DANCE. OBVIOUSLY ALL THESE ARE REASONABLE AND NEEDED.
MAYBE FOR SOME TUNES YOUR BLUE SHOES WOULD BE BEST. LET’S HANG THEM AROUND YOUR NECK. ALWAYS BE PREPARED. VERY REASONABLE.
AND JOHNNY HERE WILL CIRCLE AROUND YOU WITH MINTS ON A PILLOW ALWAYS AT THE READY. VERY REASONABLE. VERY SENSIBLE.
AND MUCH TALLER BROTHER SAM WILL BE CIRCLING IN THE OTHER DIRECTION WITH A FULL SPECTRUM FLASH LIGHT HIGHLIGHTING YOUR HAIR AND EYES ALWAYS JUST RIGHT. VERY SENSIBLY. VERY REASONABLY.
AND THE DANCE AND DEFINITELY OUR LORD GETS LOST, TAKES A 2ND PLACE TO THE ****REASONABLE**** CARES OF DAILY LIFE AND PARTICULARLY OF !!!!TRADITION!!!! BOUND !!!!RELIGION!!!! which all religion is—in every group, structure and congregation.
QX 17. Reason rationalized that it was better that one man, Christ, die for the whole Nation of Israel the pharisee reasoned . . . little did he know how right he was . . . in a very unreasonable different sense.
QX 18. Sure, one can REASON that given that Mary bore Christ; Christ was life; Christ was the fruit of Mary’s womb; Christ is THE TREE OF LIFE that Mary could be construed similarly. AT that point, reason has become servant to and the shoehorn of idolatry.
QX: 19. GOD’S ATTITUDE THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE IS THAT NOTHING AND NO ONE ENCROACHES ON HIS SUPREMACY, GLORY, ETC.
QX: 20. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW *REASONABLE* SUCH ENCROACHMENTS SEEM OR EVEN MIGHT BE.
MD: Can anybody explain this? Can it be explained reasonably? These are real questions, I am not thinking three moves ahead. I just don’t see how the case goes from your side.
QX: DID what I currently can about that above.
MD: Roamer_1 says, Human reason has it’s place, no doubt, but that place is not in trying to discern the things of YHWH.
MD: Is that statement a “thing of YHWH?”
QX: I think I’d have put it differently. I believe that God expects us to use reason to search out the deep things of God. HOWEVER, THAT REASON MUST BE GUIDED BY HOLY SPIRIT—DEEP CALLS UNTO DEEP. Otherwise—it’s pontificating magicsterical hogwash regardless of the group involved.
QX: Yes, differences arise. Life is messy. Doesn’t matter. Not the priority concern of The Father. When it is, HE CLEANS IT UP. We can’t.