Intended Catholic Dictatorship

Independent Individualist ^ | 8/27/10 | Reginald Firehammer

[Cronos]

That’s why limbus infantium is not and was never dogma. limbus patrum IS dogma —> do you, Old Reggie believe in THAT? The limbo of the fathers? The limbo where the righteous who died before Christ opened the gates of heaven, went?

[Cronos]

You do realise there is a difference between “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator," and "Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:", right?

Or do you think God's plan does not "include" everyone -- whether they are saved or not? Or do you not believe that Christ did not die for all mankind?

[Cronos]

reading scripture in CONTEXT is very important -- do not read in excerpts, Rnmom

Phl 2:12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, ,font color=red>as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

+Paul clearly saves that salvation is from God, but you need to work our your own salvation and God works in you to His will and to His good pleasure --> your working our your own salvation was wrong interpretated by Pelagians and Calvinists both falling into extremist errors.

God saves, our duty is to accept it.

[Cronos]

our Lord did not look very favorable upon those who He called "sons of the devil" or "brood of vipers".

you misrepresent that to signify that Jesus was talking to the "non-elect" --> Jesus was talking to a bunch of Jews: Sadduccees, Pharisees, Zealots maybe even Essenes. Does Calvinist belief extend "elect/non-elect" to the Jews who lived at the time of Christ?

Yet remember that the Jews at that time lived according to the Old Covenant which still held

[Cronos]

What about in the Unitarian group — your group takes in Wiccans, Atheists, etc. right?

[HarleyD]

In the Gospel we see which is more accurate

Is this what you believe??? That the NT is more accurate than the OT???

The scriptures are all written by God through the prophets, completely accurate and error free. One section isn't more or less accurate. It all paints a picture of God, the nature of God, and God's interaction with man. In fact, our Lord Jesus quoted from the OT extensively, including Noah, Jonah, and others.

[HarleyD]

LOL!!!

[HarleyD]

you misrepresent that to signify that Jesus was talking to the "non-elect" --> Jesus was talking to a bunch of Jews:

I haven't misrepresented anything. The scriptures talks in two terms about people; the righteous and the wicked. The children of light and those in darkness. Those who are slaves to righteousness and those who are slaves to sin. Those who are children of God and those who are children of the devil. Those who are chosen and those who are not. Those who hear the word of truth and those who are blinded.

It isn't the crowd that Jesus was talking to. Scripture repeatedly talks about two sets of people from cover to cover. In the OT, during Jesus' time, and in the later writings. Paul talks about how we were transformed from our wicked ways:

Eph 2:1-3 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

This fact wasn't lost on Augustine who wrote "The Two Cities".

I'll tell you why this message about us being wicked is so repugnant to some. We have totally lost our concept of how very wicked we are. Instead we think that we are so hotsy-totsy good and God will love us if we just accept Him. What utter nonsense and blasphemy. It's the old, "Jesus loves us and has a wonderful plan for our lives" syndrome. And don't take my word for it. This is based upon research that the average person believes they sin just 3 times a month.

Well, the true is that we cannot even stand to be in the radiant presence of perfection and love. And unless people understand how very wicked they are, it makes it more difficult for them to repent.

Now you will tell me "Hey, Harley, this doesn't sound very Calvinistic." God brings man to repentance ONLY when the church preaches the message of sin and the need for repentance. When believers fail to do their part with the word, God will NOT bless our actions. People NOT coming to Christ is not the fault of unbelievers not seeing the light. Rather it is a measurement of the failing of Christians.

[Iscool]

What about in the Unitarian group — your group takes in Wiccans, Atheists, etc. right?

So does yours, as long as they get water dripped on them...

[Cronos]

"I haven't misrepresented anything. The scriptures talks in two terms about people; the righteous and the wicked. The children of light and those in darkness. Those who are slaves to righteousness and those who are slaves to sin. Those who are children of God and those who are children of the devil. Those who are chosen and those who are not. Those who hear the word of truth and those who are blinded."

My error -- I mistook your point for Dr.E's. I apologize.

[Cronos]

I'll tell you why this message about us being wicked is so repugnant to some. We have totally lost our concept of how very wicked we are. Instead we think that we are so hotsy-totsy good and God will love us if we just accept Him. What utter nonsense and blasphemy. It's the old, "Jesus loves us and has a wonderful plan for our lives" syndrome. And don't take my word for it. This is based upon research that the average person believes they sin just 3 times a month.

Well, the true is that we cannot even stand to be in the radiant presence of perfection and love. And unless people understand how very wicked they are, it makes it more difficult for them to repent.

Good post. thanks

[D-fendr]

I believe we must intepret the OT through the NT. And there were/are a variety of views of God in the OT possible.

In fact, our Lord Jesus quoted from the OT

He said things like, "you have heard that… but I tell you…" We can proof text all sorts of views of God; we see this between you and I - using scripture. One of us is "more accurate". :)

[D-fendr]

"Hey, Harley, this doesn't sound very Calvinistic."

Hey, Harley, it sounds positively Eastern Orthodox. :)

[bronx2]

With or without the water, is your group drowning in a morass of prideful self perversion of the Word of God?

Accept Jesus not self.

[Running On Empty]

Your tagline fits

[Iscool]

Your tagline fits

Now, now , now...You know I could make the same personal remark to you and comment that it has nothing to do with your age...But I try to be above that...Play nice...

[Iscool]

With or without the water, is your group drowning in a morass of prideful self perversion of the Word of God?

Nope...You're refering to the group that teaches that its wards are Christians because they get wet by some holy guy in a dress or a robe who drops some water on them...

[Running On Empty]

I don’t mention age in my tagline.

Psalm 90:10

[1000 silverlings]

you posted that you would go “into a feral rage” I believe, if that book came into your presence. That sure sounds like an uncontrollable anger issue and personally, i would be concerned with anyone in your vicinity when this happens. Does not sound normal

[count-your-change]

Excellent! God moves us and as Paul said, we take positive action (katergazomai) to achieve a result, “working out our salvation”.

And reading/quoting in excerpts is fine, Jesus and the Bible writers did so frequently.