Intended Catholic Dictatorship

Independent Individualist ^ | 8/27/10 | Reginald Firehammer

[metmom]

I dunno...

I can see that it makes sense to not be Peter but either his profession or Christ. Besides, Peter referred to Jesus as the rock in his letter, I Peter. I don’t see that anywhere in Scripture that the rock means anything but God/Jesus. Maybe I’m missing it, but I don’t recall it.

Nevertheless, even if it is Peter, I agree that someone took it too far and abused it to justify the papacy and establish the authority of the Roman Catholic church.

[RnMomof7]

Again, this is FALSE. Whoever taught you that LIED.

The Sisters of St Francis..(brown Franciscans) ????

Actually I believe many of the church fathers did not believe there was an eternal soul in an unborn Baby

" But limbo has long been regarded as the common teaching of the church. In the modern age, "people find it increasingly difficult to accept that God is just and merciful if he excludes infants, who have no personal sins, from eternal happiness," the new document said."
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702216.htm

It is interesting that Limbo was sent into limbo apparently with the belief of original sin.. It just did not make grieving parents happy, and surely we want Happy Happy members..

I think this sets the church up to declare a new sacrament..abortion.. after all ..all those babies are assured heaven.. something they just might be denied if they actually lived..

[wagglebee]

Thanks, that was a great post! Obviously, I disagree with the final conclusions, but it’s nice to see that the basics are acknowledged.

I will be among the first to acknowledge that the Vatican was incredibly corrupt during the time leading up to the Reformation and remained that way for a several decades after that. There were popes, cardinals and bishops who were incredible evil men and it was not at all surprising that men such as Martin Luther began to address this hypocrisy. However, the Church has never claimed that popes were perfect or inerrant, papal infallibility simply states that in very rare instances the Church is protected from teaching error. If you look at evil men like Alexander VI you will find that they NEVER taught any doctrinal error, because they didn’t actually teach anything, all they did was take.

[OLD REGGIE]

Maybe my memory is faulty but I seem to remember Cardinal Ratzinger affirming the infallibility of Ordinatio Sacerdatolis.

I distinctly remember at the time he said it wasn't because when it came out "we" all started doing the happy dance and shouting "in your face" at the womyn-priestette people and then cardinal Ratzinger cut the legs out from under our unChristian glee. I believe what then developed was the statement that OS wasn't an exercise of the charism of infallibility because there was no refinement or clarification of dogma, it was something we already knew and fully understood JPII was just driving home the knife... er, so to speak.

And this is what I remembered:

"Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.

Responsum: In the affirmative.

This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith."

COVER LETTER TO BISHOPS' CONFERENCE PRESIDENTS Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

[RnMomof7]

Hey, you have to take the entire Catechism in context.
None of this cherry picking verses oops, sections you know.

LOL Actually mm the entire Catechism is built on proof texts .. and so quoting the answers out of context fits right in

[Running On Empty]

“I think this sets the church up to declare a new sacrament..abortion..after all..all those babies are assured heaven..something they just might be denied if they actually lived.”

This comment is too far out from reality to be accepted as one without an s/ tag.

[wagglebee]

Here is what Dr. E. originally wrote:

Sadly, Rome teaches that unbaptized babies do not go to heaven but to a fictional land called Limbo where they are deprived of the presence of God for eternity.

That is UNTRUE as I pointed out.

The Church has NEVER suggested Limbo as anything more than a THEORY. The Church has NEVER definitively stated that where the unborn/unbaptized are. And there has certainly NEVER been even a suggestion that they would be denied the presence of God for eternity.

As I stated, theologians through history have WANTED to find Scripture that could be used to definitively stated that these children were in Heaven; unfortunately, such Scripture does not exist. If there was even the flimsiest way to justify their Salvation from the Bible, that would have been Church teaching from the beginning.

I think this sets the church up to declare a new sacrament..abortion.. after all ..all those babies are assured heaven.. something they just might be denied if they actually lived.

I've given this one A LOT of thought. The Holy Innocents are martyrs because they died FOR Christ. The only way I could see aborted babies granted martyr status is to proclaim (and I would not disagree with this) that abortion is a tool of Satan that is used by his spawn to destroy Christianity.

[maryz]

Likewise, no rabbi will ever quote Jesus.

Hillel was roughly contemporaneous with Jesus -- slightly before, in fact: he is believed to have died in AD 10. Maybe Jesus was quoting Hillel. (I had numerous courses based on Midrash -- albeit over 20 years ago -- at the Hebrew College, then in Brookline, MA, now in Newton; that particular story might have been also in the first-year book we used at BU.)

Samaritans are Jews. The concept of "neighbor" or someone "closely related" applies to them, so the idea of loving your "neighbor" would apply to them in the Biblical sense, but not to the Greeks and other Goyim.

The concrete question is who is meant by "neighbor." The convntional answer, for which scriptural suppport could be adduced, was that "neighbor" meant a fellow member of one's people. . . . Does this mean, then, that foreigners, men belonging to another people are not neighbors? This would go against Scripture, which insisted upon love for foreigners also, mindful of the fact that Israel itself had lived the life of a foreigner in Egypt. It remained a matter of controversy, though, where the boundaries were to be drawn. . . . It was [] taken for granted that the Samaritans, who not long before (between the years A.D. 6 and 9) had defiled the Temple precincts in Jerusalem by "strewing dead men's bones" during the Passover festival itself were not neighbors.

Benedict XVI, Jesus of Nazareth, pp.195-96.

[RnMomof7]

If they do, and I have not heard of a single case,

It is a common practice ..still born babies and dead unbaptized infants are baptized all the time, That is one of the functions preformed by Catholic hospital chaplains or sometimes a Catholic nurse or Doctor

Now as to a case..My 17mo old grandson drown in a family pool, his mom and dad are Baptists, but a catholic grandmother asked for him to be baptized.. and the hospital chaplain baptized him. My son has the baptismal certificate

This is from a catholic forum thought it was interesting

.There is no strict doctrinal or legal/canonical regulation on this, of which I am aware. Priests are normally told in seminary to baptize and/or perform last rites even on stillborn or deceased persons. The rule of thumb which I have heard is that until bodily decomposition begins (about 2-3 days) the sacraments can still be performed. The assumption is that we have no idea when the soul leaves the body, and I suppose it 'can't hurt'. But even unbaptized children, of course, are not assumed to be damned for that purpose. The funeral rite for unbaptized children 'consigns them to the mercy of God' and leaves it at that. Source(s): Ph.D. in theology

Here is another forum with a discussion on it

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=112954

[wagglebee]

I can see that it makes sense to not be Peter but either his profession or Christ. Besides, Peter referred to Jesus as the rock in his letter, I Peter. I don’t see that anywhere in Scripture that the rock means anything but God/Jesus. Maybe I’m missing it, but I don’t recall it.

Prior to this time there is NOTHING to indicate that Peter (Petros, Cephas, etc.) had EVER been used as the name of a person. Had our Lord looked at Simon and said, "you are George and on this rock I will build my Church," nobody would have wondered. But the fact remains that He changed his name to Peter and either He was referring to Simon Peter in that verse or He intentionally said something that would long be misunderstood and He would have no reason to do that.

Keep in mind that EVERY time God changed a person's name in the Bible it was accompanied by a significant new leadership role. God only changed ONE name in the New Testament and that was Peter.

[RnMomof7]

So what is the final determination on baptism in your catechism??? Easy, ain't it...

It was always that baptism was necessary until the church decided it wanted happy happy members , and did not want God to look like a real judge.. so they "expounded " on the teaching ..

" THE Pope will cast aside centuries of Catholic belief later this week by abolishing formally the concept of limbo, in a gesture calculated to help to win the souls of millions of babies in the developing world for Christ."

A bit of man made theology here..

"The answer since the 13th century has been limbo. What remains in an uncertain state, though, is the status of all the pre-Christian and unbaptised adult souls held by some still to be in this halfway house between Heaven and Hell."

link

[RnMomof7]

That is a promise that all believers cling to, as we pray for our children . But should it not be so, we know that God is the just Judge and we will be at peace with His judgement

[OLD REGGIE]

Reggie, Papal Infallibility was not a Church doctrine until 1870. Since then it has only been invoked once in 1950. The criteria declared only applied to one retroactive case, both dealing with Mariology.

Papal Infallibility was defined during the First Vatican Council, not without a great deal of controversy and arm twisting. Conveniently, nearly 170 of the dissenting bishops had left prior to the final vote. Wonder why?

If you truly know the exact number of Infallible Papal declarations you know more than the authorities of the entire Catholic Church which has never chosen to enumerate any count. Congratulations!

You bluster and authoritative tone might work well down at the church hall or when dealing with the ignorant, but it doesn't get you very far when dealing with properly Catechized and thoroughly educated Catholics.

Sweet talk is not becoming of you.

FYI CARDINAL RATZINGER ON THE INFALLIBILITY OF ORDINATIO SACERDATOLIS

[OLD REGGIE]

The appearance of contradiction in the CCC is USUALLY resolved by further inquiry. I simply will not give the paragraph citation, but if any of you all, rather than speculating and charging us with the results of your guesses, would actually consult the INDEX (for crying out loud) of the CCC he would find where the topic is addressed.

If you get sick on a fast moving

don't go there. Any conclusion you come to is because you were poorly catechized.

[OLD REGGIE]

Interestingly, many of the present day Palestinian Muslims may have Samaritan blood....

Interestingly, so may you.

[stfassisi]

MM-”’The Catholic church is pretty adamant that those who are not baptized go to hell””

This is a lie.

The Church even teaches that it’s even possible for non- Christians to go to heaven by following the law of love written on their hearts . God PINES for all of us to follow this law of love.The Spirit of Christ Blows where He wills and the Church recognizes this

From Dominus Iesus
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Excerpts...
For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.

God, who desires to call all peoples to himself in Christ and to communicate to them the fullness of his revelation and love, “does not fail to make himself present in many ways, not only to individuals, but also to entire peoples through their spiritual riches, of which their religions are the main and essential expression even when they contain ‘gaps, insufficiencies and errors’

[OLD REGGIE]

Actually, he outlined only one, the sole instance

Prior to the solemn definition of 1870, Pope Pius IX, with the support of the overwhelming majority of Roman Catholic bishops,

Prior to....

Actually, I'm not as interested in what Natural Law has to say as I am interested in the official Catholic Church position.

I'm waiting patiently.

[OLD REGGIE]

Is there anything in Church teaching which says unbaptized babies will not go to hell?

Now, now, relying on negative proofs? The Church teaching is basically, "we don't know" i.e. limbo. Yet we keep praying for them as we do for all.

Thank you for an honest answer. The Catholic Church offers no more hope for the parents of a newborn infant who dies before they are Baptized than "we hope your baby will see God."

[stfassisi]

I hope you see God someday too, Old Reg.This is why we pray for each other unceasingly.

[metmom]

Actually, I'm not as interested in what Natural Law has to say as I am interested in the official Catholic Church position.

Silly boy.

Don't you know that NL IS the Catholic church. He's NEVER wrong about Catholic doctrine or his interpretation of the CCC. Everybody else is, but NL never is.

Come to think of it, I don't recall that he's ever admitted that he's been wrong about anything.

It must be tough being so perfect living in such an imperfect world.

So rest assured, that if NL tells you it is so about the Catholic church, you can consider it written in stone.