Intended Catholic Dictatorship

Independent Individualist ^ | 8/27/10 | Reginald Firehammer

[wolfcreek]

I would like to make clear I hold no animous toward the RCC nor do I see most Pagan religions as evil.

After all, they didn’t know of Jesus but, they prayed to God.

[Mad Dawg]

I quite understand that your side finds it easier NOT to read the posts you argue against and more convenient to refute points we don’t make. So I understand that you may have missed my saying I would not be on the thread again until Thursday.

But I won’t. This may make it marginally more difficult to misconstrue and misrepresent what I say, but I imagine that you all will manage.

[metmom]

Shall we start going through Catholic figures involved in things such as the Inquisition one by one in the depth in which you dissect Calvin?

There wouldn’t be enough bandwidth on FR to do that.

He was wrong for supporting the death sentence for heresy Scripturally and by modern standards.

He was typical for supporting the death penalty for heresy according to religious custom and practice of hundreds of years by the Catholic church and by that days standards.

To his credit, he wanted a quick execution instead of the torturous burning at the stake.

People in those days had a lot to learn about compassion and a lot to unlearn from Roman Catholicism’s treatment of dissenters. It doesn’t always happen overnight, although one could wish it did.

[metmom]

One, good, solid denunciation.

I would be remiss to not count it.

Thank you.

[metmom]

The point is that when we tell what Catholics believe about Mary from what we know from our own personal experience, we are challenged to provide sources for the claims or be branded as liars.

So, we provide sources for the claims and now are called *seriously disordered by hatred*, that we *treasure it and nurture it and lasciviously drool over it*, and that it might be a form of *morbid delectation*.

Condemned if you do, condemned if you don’t.

There’s no winning with some Roman Catholics.

[metmom]

If the Catholics deny the factions which in reality exist, they can claim unity of denomination, as if they’re superior to Protestantism, which is what they claim.

Since the number of denominations is one of the things that Roman Catholics condemn Protestants for, they MUST deny factions within their own organization.

[caww]

if not considered another denomination?

In following religious threads it appears there are denominations, though as often denied as such, as well sects with Catholic overtones...calling themselves Catholics. I understand why they would not call them denominations...rather something else. Even people who leave the Catholic church and take membership in another church altogether are still considered Catholic....for that matter even those from the Reformation til now would in their minds still be Catholic..."Once a Catholic always a Catholic" has been stated more than once."

But this writing and many others does place them in a difficult situation to explain away....based on what has Romes approval, Bishops signature of approval and such this article bares the names of those who are well known in the Catholic faith...so as stated is it not... or is it indeed but I think only to the mind of one who is Catholic....otherwise it's quite apparent exactly what this is.

Still...hard to get ones heart and head around why Catholics have not removed this and other Mary and idolatry worship from their church? If Christ is to them what they "say" he is...these could not remain.

[Cronos]

1. The death of Jesus Christ is sufficient for the salvation of our sins. This is Church teaching

2. God willed that this work of salvation be accomplished through the collaboration of a woman, while respecting her free will (Gal. 4:4) But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law

3. All God's creatures -- Mary included, need to accept Christ/God. This us co-operating (in the sense of only saying "yes") with God's plan and His work and His grace in our salvation. We do NOTHING to save oursevels except to accept HIM. Do you agree with this?

4. 1 Peter 2:5 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. and Phil 3:10 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

5. We are to proclaim Christ crucified. We are to spread the gospel and share the saving work of Christ with the world. We are called to prayer, holiness, and evangelism. We hence co-operate or rather are tools in God's plan of salvation.

6. Just as Moses and Abraham interceded with God, we too intercede with God for others.

7. These and the evangelists spread the Word of God to the Word and we as minor evangelisers TOO must spread the Word of God

8. Mary BORE the Word of God, she was a tool, an evangelizer in bringing the Word of God to the World

9. Just as our co-operation as tools is just an addition to Christ's death that saves the world, so too is Mary's role as a tool, a co-operator (in the sense that she bore Christ, our God and our Lord)with God.

10. Col 1:24 24Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. is St. Paul implying that Christ’s death on the cross was inadequate? Not at all. Instead, he is teaching that the all-sufficient sacrifice has to be completed by being preached, accepted, and embraced by our cooperation and that our suffering plays a mysterious part in this action. In that way the Redemption of Christ is applied and brought alive in the present moment by our own cooperation in that one, full, final sacrifice. No one says we are equal to Christ; instead, by grace, our cooperation becomes a part of Christ’s all sufficient sacrifice.

11. Mary too co-operated, yet as Simeon said in Luke 2:35 35so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."

12. Acts 1:14 14They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

15. Mary was not discarded by God once her purpose was completed. Instead, God installs her into an eternal relationship with God as a tool for God's plan for salvation of the world.

16. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home

[caww]

Christians who lack formal theological education are better off than the most learned theologian, if they are resolutely committed to Scripture and its proper interpretation when the learned theologian is not. The “lay” Christian who employs Biblical principles of interpretation and does the work of a Berean will soon understand just how wrong and how spiritually deadly the theology of the neo-liberals actually is.

Interesting article Cronos.....It does seem though that many in the Christian community understand the liberal teachings in the OPC and not all Presbyterian congregations agree with the leaderships teachings....the problem faced is much like many churches today where the worlds views has not only infiltrated churches...but it's re-canned to fit whatever the leadership at the time would desire. I hear many of various denominations all concerned about the way their church has been headed....Catholics have great problems now as do Protestants and there's few churches that are exempt.

...I am convinced there is a major attack against Christianity....much of this is by simply introducing, and the congregations accepting, teachings etc. they should not......reminds me of the Laodecia Church in Revelations....Christ ready to spew them out of His mouth for He is kept on the outside of their door while they plan and device their own system of religion.

[Cronos]

Bishop, Priest, and Deacon

The sacrament of holy orders is conferred in three ranks of clergy: bishops, priests, and deacons.

Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called "evangelists" in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).

In the apostolic age, the terms for these offices were still somewhat fluid. Sometimes a term would be used in a technical sense as the title for an office, sometimes not. This non-technical use of the terms even exists today, as when the term is used in many churches (both Protestant and Catholic) to refer to either ordained ministers (as in “My minister visited him”) or non-ordained individuals. (In a Protestant church one might hear “He is a worship minister,” while in a Catholic church one might hear “He is an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion.”)

Thus, in the apostolic age Paul sometimes described himself as a diakonos ("servant" or "minister"; cf. 2 Cor. 3:6, 6:4, 11:23; Eph. 3:7), even though he held an office much higher than that of a deacon, that of apostle.

Similarly, on one occasion Peter described himself as a "fellow elder," [1 Pet. 5:1] even though he, being an apostle, also had a much higher office than that of an ordinary elder.

The term for bishop, episcopos ("overseer"), was also fluid in meaning. Sometimes it designated the overseer of an individual congregation (the priest), sometimes the person who was the overseer of all the congregations in a city or area (the bishop or evangelist), and sometimes simply the highest-ranking clergyman in the local church—who could be an apostle, if one were staying there at the time.

Although the terms "bishop," "priest," and "deacon" were somewhat fluid in the apostolic age, by the beginning of the second century they had achieved the fixed form in which they are used today to designate the three offices whose functions are clearly distinct in the New Testament.

the cognate verb hierourgeo (to act as a priest) is used in Romans 15:16. There Paul speaks of himself in these words: "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit."

the Catechism of the Catholic Church says clearly that all of God’s faithful people share in the priesthood of Christ by virtue of their baptism: "Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church ‘a kingdom, priests for his God and Father’" (CCC 1546, cf. Rev. 1:6, 5:9–10). Further, it says, "The whole Church is a priestly people. Through baptism all the faithful share in the priesthood of Christ. This participation is called the ‘common priesthood of all the faithful.’ Based on this common priesthood and ordered to its service, there exists another participation in the mission of Christ: the ministry conferred by the sacrament of holy orders, where the task is to serve in the name and in the person of Christ the head in the midst of the community" (1591). In other words, the existence of a common priesthood for all God’s people does not exclude a special calling for the pastors of the Church to be priests.

Peter speaks of priesthood, he applies it to the "common priesthood of all the faithful" of which the Catechism spoke "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Pet. 2:9).

This does NOT exclude a special role for those men chosen by God to serve as minister-priests for and to God’s people

1 Peter 2:9 is quoting from a number of Old Testament texts. One of them is Exodus 19:6, where the people of Israel are called "a kingdom of priests." Isaiah 61:6 says that in the New Covenant times, the restored people of God will be called "priests of the Lord."

Now this where the people as a whole in the Old Covenant played a priestly role, it did not exclude a special calling for the Levites as priests

Christ’s priesthood fulfills and supersedes the Aaronic priesthood.

Christ called some men to be his special representatives, such as in Matthew 4:19, Luke 6:13, and John 15:16.

the whole purpose of the eternal Word (Logos) becoming flesh was to reconcile us to God. Now, in order to have a ministry of reconciliation, Christ had to be a priest as well as a prophet and king. In fact, his act of reconciling death highlighted his priestly office more than anything else. Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 5:18–23 that the same God "who through Christ reconciled us to himself" is also the one who "gave us the ministry of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18). "The message of reconciliation" in verse 19 is that God does not hold men’s transgressions against them. That is the ministry of the priests in the Catholic Church: They are to be agents of reconciliation by carrying Christ the Reconciler to others. That ultimately is why God chooses some men from among his people to be his priests. Priests help people to reconcile with God.

There is the common or universal priesthood of all Israelites at the bottom (cf. Ex. 19:6), a ministerial priesthood above them (cf. Ex. 19:22, 24; Lev. 1:5), and a high priest at the top (cf. Num. 35: 25). We thus should expect to find a similar three-fold priesthood under the New Covenant, and we do. There is the common or universal priesthood of all Christians (cf. 1 Pet. 2:5, 9), a ministerial priesthood above them (cf. Rom. 15:16), and a high priest at the top (cf. Heb. 3:1). Rather than varying from the biblical model of priesthood, the Catholic understanding copies it exactly where Christ is the High Priests,we have a ministerial priesthood and a universal priesthood of all believers. It is the two-fold model that departs from what we see in the Bible

[caww]

True Metmom, but then they ARE seeing and hearing the truth and determining what they will or not believe....”Choose this day who your will serve”..comes to mind. So there will be no excuse on that day as we so often see on the threads.

Truth and Christ stand firmly regardless of how the distortions of others attempt to change or alter that truth... It's been that way since He came....those who desire truth in their heart and sole and truly seeking that will hear...because He said His word accomplishes what HE sets it out to do...of that we can be sure. Those who ride the fence will fall on the side of dis-belief because fence riding is a no until it is a yes to the truth.

[sitetest]

Dear Religion Moderator,

I believe that the posting of FR e-mails is pretty much forbidden on FR.

If I am in error, my apologies.

sitetest

[Religion Moderator]

Do NOT post Freepmails on thread.

[Cronos]

Catholics have great problems now as do Protestants and there's few churches that are exempt.

True -- and I take no pleasure in the demise of the ECUSA or the ELCA or the PCUSA to the gay brigade. That would be stupid of me -- even on threads here, my belief is that for people fleeing from the ELCA they should first see a conservative LUTHERAN Church.

We all must be united against the common evils that face us. While we fight here, some modicum of decency and commonality should remain. As you said correctly "I am convinced there is a major attack against Christianity" within and without.

[Cronos]

Metmom -- the problem is that you tell us what you think someone believes or even what someone told you they believe. We ask for you to check this as to whether it really IS Church doctrine?

Now, if I take some simple, Christian, believing Protestant person and ask him what he believes in and he's wrong about a few things and then I somehow say on an internet forum "this is what all Protestants believe" -- I would be wrong and that is analogous to what the above tract does. It irritates us to be told "look, this is what I say you believe, don't tell me what you actually believe".

We can debate on the solas, but please don't tell us what we do not believe in.

[Cronos]

It will help if you understand what the Church means by such doctrines and what it does not mean.

First, the Church recognizes that Jesus in the ultimate sense is our only redeemer—plain and simple.

Only God could make up for an offense against His divinity.

When Jesus, the second Person of the Blessed Trinity, became man, He used the services of several human beings. He used prophets, the last of whom was His cousin, John the Baptist. He used St. Joseph as his foster father to protect Him and to be a father to Him in His formative years.

Most of all, He used Mary as His mother who gave birth to Him, nursed Him, and nurtured Him as a child.

All of these people cooperated with Him and His mission of salvation.

He alone was the redeemer in the ultimate sense, but they cooperated with Him in His work of redemption.

In varying degrees they all could be called co-redeemers in the sense of co-operating not as Redeemers in any sense of the term, because of such cooperation. But because of her unique role and the degree of her cooperation, Mary is singled out. In all of humanity, God singled her out for a truly sublime role. Nursing Almighty God at her breast is beyond our ability to fully appreciate. Yet thousands of Christians since the Protestant reformation have completely ignored such sublimity.

God is the one who singled Mary out for the unique role in salvation that she has. She did not seek out such distinction. It is important to remember the high praise Jesus lavished on St. John the Baptist. Yet his mission was not nearly as exalted as Mary’s. Jesus worked his first miracle at her request. All she needed to say was: "They have no wine." He understood exactly what she wanted. He could have taken care of the matter on his own. But he chose to have his mother’s intercession be a part of the mix. The miracle wasn’t any less significant because of her part in it. On the contrary, she shows us how accessible he is to our needs. To truly appreciate Mary is to appreciate her Son all the more

[Natural Law]

"Not only are you once again breaking the FR RF rules by "mind-reading," "

I don't believe you.

[Quix]

I think I understand.

[Quix]

Well put.