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The Challenges of (Non-existent?) Mormon Theology (OPEN)
Patheos ^
| August 9, 2010
| Blake Ostler
Posted on 08/19/2010 9:50:35 AM PDT by greyfoxx39
click here to read article
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NOTE: Thanks to Restornu for the link to this valuable research source that was posted in her closed thread.
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To: colorcountry; Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; ...
2
posted on
08/19/2010 9:51:31 AM PDT
by
greyfoxx39
(BARF of the YEAR: Obama "We are God's partners in matters of life and death,")
To: greyfoxx39
3
posted on
08/19/2010 10:16:08 AM PDT
by
svcw
(Everyday the enemy tries to offer you an apple, when God has already given us an orchard.)
To: greyfoxx39
Sounds of jello being nailed to a wall.
4
posted on
08/19/2010 10:26:52 AM PDT
by
Godzilla
( 3-7-77)
To: greyfoxx39
There is a basic theological encyclopedia for the LDS church. It is Mormon Doctrine by McConkie, recently discontinued from print.
It is widely criticized both in and out of the church, and the leaders would rather it just go away.
Outside of that, it would be very difficult to put together a theology, for a couple of reasons.
1. It’s too much of a Rube Goldberg hodgepodge of various religions fraught with contradictions and face-squinting questions that lead to more questions and
2. Nobody wants to speak as the final word of authority and the suits in HQ would never be willing to admit that any particular publication is THE Mormon definitive work on theology and
3. Nobody really knows what official LDS doctrine really is, including their apostles.
5
posted on
08/19/2010 10:29:41 AM PDT
by
lurk
To: lurk
lurk,
It is amazing that on FR, mormons will respond to threads like this one and call them anti-mormon propoganda.
If you ask them to clarify, for example, how many gods they believe exist [ballpark], they refuse.
Either they don’t know, they are ashamed and embarrassed to say it publicly, or they purposefully want to keep that from becoming known. None of which are forthright and honest.
As a Christian, I can tell you we believe in ONE God.
BTW, for lurkers, mormons believe in TRILLIONS of gods, with more manufactured all the time. Not that they will answer a simple question on FR though...
best,
ampu
To: aMorePerfectUnion
To: greyfoxx39
Addressing the future of Mormon theology is problematic on many fronts.DUH!
Addressing the PAST of Mormon theology is problematic on many fronts as well!
8
posted on
08/19/2010 11:27:55 AM PDT
by
Elsie
To: lurk
Nobody really knows what official LDS doctrine really is, including their apostles.
9
posted on
08/19/2010 11:28:49 AM PDT
by
Elsie
To: lurk
We have a WINNER!!!
10
posted on
08/19/2010 11:29:44 AM PDT
by
Elsie
To: Paragon Defender
Paragon,
I have looked at your links. I’ve read your literature.
My understanding is that mormons believe in an infinite number of gods - trillions at a minimum.
You refer to this as silly.
God, in the Bible says HE is the ONLY God. HE didn’t think it was silly.
Do you think HIS claim to be the ONLY God is silly?
Do you take HIM at HIS Word, or do you believe in trillions of mormon gods?
Why do you think that the Great Statement He gave to Israel is a silly mind game?
best,
ampu
To: Godzilla
LDS 101:
12
posted on
08/19/2010 11:33:57 AM PDT
by
ejonesie22
(Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
To: Paragon Defender
Heres a few links for you to do your own research. PD, you guys will complain like CRFAZY if We use NON-official LDS sources; so WHY do think that YOU'll be able to do it?
You KNOW that only the top two are official!
13
posted on
08/19/2010 11:34:21 AM PDT
by
Elsie
To: greyfoxx39
When you are build on the lies and other machinations of a con man, it is not like things will magically get better.
Nothing ever will fit right...
14
posted on
08/19/2010 11:35:10 AM PDT
by
ejonesie22
(Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
To: Paragon Defender
Heres a few links for you to do your own research. Oh heck!
HERE is some MORMON 'scripture' to help you out!!
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.
16, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 714, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 1520, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 2125, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 2627, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 2839, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 4047, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 4850, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 5157, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 5866, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
1
Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many
awives and
bconcubines
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore,
aprepare thy heart to receive and
bobey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting
acovenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye
bdamned; for no one can
creject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a
ablessing at my hands shall abide the
blaw which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and
aeverlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my
bglory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
7 And verily I say unto you, that the
aconditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations,
boaths,
cvows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and
dsealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is
eanointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by
frevelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this
gpower (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this
hpower in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the
ikeys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
8 Behold, mine house is a house of
aorder, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
9 Will I
aaccept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?
10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not
aappointed?
11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father
aordained unto you, before the world was?
12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandmentthat no man shall
acome unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.
13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by
athrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall
bnot remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.
14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.
15 Therefore, if a
aman marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in
amarriage; but are appointed angels in
bheaven, which angels are ministering
cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are
aangels of God forever and ever.
18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that
acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man
amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and
beverlasting covenant, and it is
csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of
dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the
ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto themYe shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit
fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depthsthen shall it be written in the Lambs
gBook of Life, that he shall commit no
hmurder whereby to shed innocent
iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their
jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the
kseeds forever and ever.
20
Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from
aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them.
Then shall they be bgods, because they have
call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my
alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For
astrait is the gate, and narrow the
bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the
clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that
awhere I am ye shall be also.
24 This is
aeternal livesto
bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath
csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25
aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the
bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they
creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the
aHoly Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they
bcommit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be
cdelivered unto the buffetings of
dSatan unto the day of
eredemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The
ablasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall
bnot be
cforgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit
dmurder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be
edamned, saith the Lord.
28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the
alaw of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.
29
aAbraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
30
aAbraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loinsfrom whose
bloins ye are, namely, my servant Josephwhich were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the
cstars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.
31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of
aAbraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.
32 Go ye, therefore, and do the
aworks of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.
33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.
34 God
acommanded Abraham, and Sarah gave
bHagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord,
acommanded it.
36 Abraham was
acommanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not
bkill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for
crighteousness.
37 Abraham received
aconcubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and
bJacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their
cexaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
38 David also received
amany wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
39
aDavids wives and concubines were
bgiven unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the
ckeys of this power; and in none of these things did he
dsin against me save in the case of
eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath
ffallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I
ggave them unto another, saith the Lord.
40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an
aappointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.
41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man
areceiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy
banointing, she hath committed
cadultery and shall be destroyed.
42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has
acommitted adultery.
43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a
avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.
44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and
agive her unto him that hath not committed
badultery but hath been
cfaithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.
45 For I have conferred upon you the
akeys and power of the priesthood, wherein I
brestore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.
46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you
aseal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you
bbind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you
cremit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.
47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will
acurse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.
48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you
agive any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.
49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be
awith thee even unto the
bend of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I
cseal upon you your
dexaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your
efather.
50 Behold, I have seen your
asacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your
bsacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I
caccepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.
51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to
aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith,
areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been
afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and
acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be
bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an
ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of
beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid
aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to
brejoice.
57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for
aSatan bseeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his
cexaltation and glory.
58 Now, as touching the law of the
apriesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.
59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was
aAaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that
bsent me, and I have endowed him with the
ckeys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit
dsin, and I will justify him.
60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthoodif any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse
aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have
aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to
amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be
bglorified.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take
aHagar to wife.
66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.
15
posted on
08/19/2010 11:35:59 AM PDT
by
Elsie
To: Paragon Defender
LOL actually we typically dont want to play your silly little games.Well; I wouldn't either if I kept losing all the time!
16
posted on
08/19/2010 11:37:06 AM PDT
by
Elsie
To: Paragon Defender
17
posted on
08/19/2010 11:37:51 AM PDT
by
Godzilla
( 3-7-77)
To: aMorePerfectUnion
I have looked at your links. Ive read your literature.
It would seem not.
To: Paragon Defender; aMorePerfectUnion
Ok, as I have told you on several occasions I have read all of these sources.
Therefore since you pointed us there to answer AMPUs question then you obviously have no issue with us sharing the facts of your faith from the resources you have so kindly provided.
AMPU There is a potential for at least a few million gods. As the material tells us, god the father and his son, Jesus a god himself, are separate beings, so there are two. Also any good Mormon male, as a joint heirs with Jesus will inherit the fathers powers and become a god themselves.
Given that there has to have been at least some successful Mormons, that leads to a potential for a lot of gods, since LDS has had a few million members over the years.
We thank you for being so straight forward with us PD and pointing out this unique aspect of the Mormon faith. We now know the truth due to your efforts.
19
posted on
08/19/2010 11:53:37 AM PDT
by
ejonesie22
(Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
To: Paragon Defender
When you seriously look into the BILLIONS of $$$ in LDS, Inc...get back to me.
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