Posted on 08/15/2010 3:56:22 PM PDT by TaraP
The Assumption is not a metaphor...
We must be very clear on this point: The Assumption is not a metaphor. The Blessed Virgin Mary was really taken up, her physical body was transformed. Pope Pius XII in Munificentissimus Deus (1950) declared that Mary, “after the completion of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven.” Both BODY and SOUL!
This means that her physical body was transformed and glorified (in a manner identical to Christ’s after his Resurrection), her soul was perfected with the Beatific Vision, and she was taken up.
Is heaven a place? In the General Audience of 21 July 1999, Pope John Paul II stated that heaven “is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity.”
In this statement, as (almost) always, the great Holy Father was in perfect accord with St. Thomas Aquinas – “Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us”.
What John Paul II wished to stress, and what is especially important to consider today, is that heaven is not to be understood in terrestrial terms.
Heaven is primarily a state of being and is certainly not a ‘place’ in the worldly sense of the term. Nevertheless, we come to a difficulty when we ask:
Where did Mary’s (and Christ’s) body go?
The simplest answer is: Heaven! But then we wonder: If heaven isn’t a place in the ordinary sense of the word, how could there be real human bodies present there?
The words of Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange (who taught John Paul II and oversaw his doctoral work) are most helpful: “Heaven means this place, and especially this condition, of supreme beatitude. Had God created no bodies, but only pure spirits, heaven would not need to be a place; it would signify merely the state of the angels who rejoice in the possession of God.
But in fact heaven is also a place. There we find the humanity of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the angels, and the souls of the saints. Though we cannot say with certitude where this place is to be found, or what its relation is to the whole universe, revelation does not allow us to doubt of its existence.”
Now do not think that John Paul II had contradicted his teacher when he said that heaven is not a physical place in the clouds! Garrigou-Lagrange and the great Pontiff are both getting at the same point: Heaven is first and foremost union with God; secondarily, heaven is the place where the bodies of Jesus and Mary abide, but this ‘place’ is not like every other place we think of – its relation to our universe is not clear.
Glorified bodies are very different than non-glorified bodies (though they are essentially the same). A glorified body does not move and take up space in exactly the same way as a non-glorified body does. Still, the glorified bodies of Jesus and Mary are somewhere, but this ‘somewhere’ will necessarily be a ‘place’ which is ‘glorified’ – just as the glorified body is different from non-glorified body, it resides in a ‘glorified place’ which is different from a non-glorified physical place.
Where is heaven? The simple answer is: This has not yet been revealed to us. However, we can say that it is certainly not on earth. Neither is it within the earth. It is not in clouds either. Heaven may be somewhere in our universe, far off – though we must be careful not to fall back into our terrestrial categories of space, distance, and location.
Perhaps it is most likely that heaven is outside the universe in what some Thomists have called “uncontained place”. In ST III, q.57, a.4, ad 2 (which is not in the oldest and best manuscripts) we read: “A place implies the notion of containing; hence the first container has the formality of first place, and such is the first heaven. Therefore, bodies need themselves to be in a place, insofar as they are contained by a heavenly body. But glorified bodies, Christ’s especially, do not stand in need of being so contained, because they draw nothing from the heavenly bodies, but from God through the soul.
So there is nothing to prevent Christ’s body from being beyond the containing radius of the heavenly bodies, and not in a containing place. Nor is there need for a vacuum to exist outside heaven, since there is no place there, nor is there any potentiality susceptive of a body, but the potentiality of reaching thither lies in Christ.”
This argument from the Summa claims that, because the glorified body in no way relies upon the non-glorified world, neither does it need to be contained in the universe. Thus, the bodies of Jesus and Mary may in fact be outside of the universe, outside of space and time, no longer contained by place. There is no space or place outside of the universe, but this is where the bodies of Christ and Mary are; since they need not be contained by physical place.
Therefore, it seems most likely that heaven is outside of our universe. It is not a ‘place’ as we usually think of ‘place’, but is a ‘non-containing place’, a ‘glorified place’. The glorified physical bodies of Jesus and Mary reside there
On the Mary sin issue, you’ll have no arguement and have full agreement from me!
Good thing mdmathis6....I would have a very real problem with my relationship with Christ if it required what the catholic church does in requiring worship and prayer to her..as the Popes have stated. Let alone all the other Saints asked to prayer to.
Christ is sufficient for us in every way and over the years has more than covered all ground concerning Christians and those we love...as well as those He has called to Himself. He IS enough and more.
My real problem with a lot of catholicism is that over the centuries, it has taken its men of faith and made them larger than life. Yes God honors men of faith and shall reward them, but lands sakes taking someone like a simple maid and ascribing sinlessness and co redemptrix power to her blows away any comic book hero that Stan Lee ever drew.
This “hero making” actually detracts from the real example these folks had set and detracts from what the scripture says about humble faith...”His strength is made perfect in weakness...!”
Yeah...it does indeed distract from Christ...she becomes the focus unfortunately. I just came from the Vatican Website reading what some of the Popes stated about her. It is so disheartening reading that they encourage their people to worship her....further stating how they are to depend and rely on Her for various things which are Christ’s alone to do on our behalf. I say again as a mother myself....if I had watched my son endure for mankind what her son did, I would be beyond disappointed and certainly would be directing people to stop this and go directly to my son...I believe fully Mary would have us honor only her son, if she were alive and among us. She would take no glory for herslf at all.
Yeah, either that or she saw herself as obedient to the Law.
Did you expect her to say to those who might have questioned her, "Oh, no I'm different, I don't have to follow the Law."
Some of the preposterous things people come up with when left to their own devices!
To me, it means we have consciously chosen to do that which we know is against the will of God.
Society does not imprison small children for accidentally starting fires, nor does it criminally hold culpable the mentally deficient.
Why would anyone imagine a God with less mercy than the common legal system?
That’s a real bad arguement.....carries no weight whatsoever.
Christianity is about a person, not a Book, the Book itself being about that Person and his relationship to us.
The Incarnation is not “just” or even a “miracle.” The Virgin Birth is not just a sign of God’s Power. It was a coming of God into the world—again. Heaven ‘s forces landing on a hostile shore, and establishing a beachhead that is meant to grow, and grow and grow. Yet the powers of darkness continue to try to throw that army back into the sea.
But you say that Mary was a sinner. Does it mean nothing to you that Mary was mother of the savior? Do you not believe he was God? The most pointed question posed by Jesus was “Who do you say that I am?” The answer through the centuries have been various: from a liberal Rabbi to God. There are those who say he is “divine,” but that can mean “godlike.” As the Jehovah’s witnesses say and as some Christian heretics have always said. . Exactly where do you stand?
Just so you know I understand the Birth Of Christ very well...just not in the same light catholics do, with far too much focus on Mary than of the Savior Himself....which is what I focus on...the Saviors Birth much more,than the than the Virgin Birth. Though significant she was not the “star” Christ was... and remains so to this day.
and here it is a day later and this subject is still being debated...haven’t we (protestants & Catholics)learned anything from our dreadful religious wars/history? We need to stop the squabbling over this and unite in our effort to obey the Great Commission and spread the Word to all mankind: tribal, hindu, unchurched/pagan, muslim, and buddhist. The specific “rules” and doctrines that we continue to argue about only keep us from obeying Jesus. I pray for a sense of unity among believers; I pray that I will heed His call and do whatever He commands. I refuse to let my religious denomination or someone else’s distract me from being His servant in whatever way I can. God help us all!
**that this theological study started early in the 2nd century as attested to in the writings of St. Justin Martyr who died circa 155 AD and also St. Ireneaus’s writings circa 175 AD.**
And you guarantee those teachers to be without error?
Paul warned the elders of the church in Ephesus: “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievious wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also OF YOUR OWN SELVES shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” Acts 20: 29-30
That was on Paul’s third missionary journey. He had run into a false prophet, on his first journey, that was perverting the right ways of the Lord.
Paul, Peter, James, John, and Jude all warned of false teachers and doctrines being present even then (1st century), as well in the years to come. Furthermore, I believe the devil didn’t wait 50 hours, let alone 50 years before trying to mislead the masses away from this ‘new and living way’.
**the Church saw in Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant,**
Maybe your church does, but the scriptures show the Ark of the Covenant to be one of many things that symbolize Jesus Christ himself.
What was in the Ark? The tablets of stone, or as Stephen refered to them...”the lively oracles”. What was/is in Jesus Christ? The Word. “..the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.” John 6:63
**..passages in Revelation 12 once again speak of a Woman and a Son which most fully represent Christ and his Mother Mary.**
This forum has delt with that myth numerous times like it has others.
The woman is the nation of Israel, and the twelve stars are the twelve tribes. The chapter covers, in very spiritual terms, the persecution of the ‘woman’, after the man-child has been caught up to heaven. The ‘time, times, and half a time speak of the persecution during the great tribulation, where the nation is nearly overcome by the serpent.
Gotta go, be back in a couple of days.
When we think of God He is triune,.... certainly Mary is not the mother of the trinity, Father, Son and Comforter.
Jesus before He came to earth was her creator. For her to actually be the mother of God she would have needed to exist alongside Him before He came to earth..... The title mother of God is not found in Scripture nor is it insinuated to be taught.
Jesus never called Mary his mother, but woman....... How does one give her titles that the Holy Spirit has not revealed to us in Scripture or said by Jesus. This can certainly be misleading, and needs to be better qualified otherwise one might consider the eternal God has a eternal mother.
Instead of arguing Mary is the mother of God, to say the son who created her chose her to be his earthly mother.
Of course we learned.....and there was a Reformation because the church was on a slippery slope leading the people astray and into pagan practices as we know.
Just as in Vatican II...their own Reformation.... made the changes they believed necessary to keep the Catholic church on track with the dogma and doctrines it has established.
There will always be debates, just as there were in Christ's day.....and so I will always stand against any pagan practices which lead people astray and take the focus and Centrality of Christ away from believers onto something or someone more than Christ Himself....and which keeps people looking to and praying to "other" idols/images/ or deities of their own making.
The Apostles spoke against these, God spoke against these, and Christ spoke against these...and His word speaks against these. We ARE in obediance when we speak against these as well....for we follow Him. This does not prevent us, by any means , from being His servant but is part and parcel of the Christian walk for those to stand for truth and against falsehood.
Our work in presenting the Gospel does not cease because of these debates....there is life outside of the Internet and FR. and it is there we do see the fruit of our labor, oftentimes enhanced by these debates. We all learn from them....if one cares to be a student as well as a debater. As long as people desire to discuss these issues anyone is free to comment and join in. For those who don't wish to there are a vast number of other threads they can visit and share on. Or they can even start a thread of their own liking....that is one of the joys of FR.
“But you say that Mary was a sinner. Does it mean nothing to you that Mary was mother of the savior? Do you not believe he was God?”
You seem to be confusing Mary and Jesus. Yes Jesus is God, in the flesh. But Mary is NOT. Jesus lived some 33 years among sinners without any of the sin rubbing off on him, so I don’t see what’s so hard about him spending 9 months in some sinners tummy without any of her sin rubbing off on him. Get over it, Mary was just another sinner that had a very special role. There is a long list of them in the Bible, just look at the genealogy of Jesus, it includes a long list of very sinful people (hookers, adulterers, murderers, etc.) why should Mary be any different?
Zuriel gets at the heart of the concern. The apostles were specifically ordained by Jesus, and of course Jesus we trust. But we were specifically taught to look out for false teachers.
As the demon said to the seven sons of Sceva when they attempted to exorcise him:
“And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?” Acts 19:15
I trust the Scriptures written by the designated apostles. I trust the Old Testament that was quoted by Jesus as authoritative. Men who teach who are not apostles are subject to scrutiny of Scripture by me. If they teach doctrine contrary to Scripture or in addition to Scripture, I reject it. I have to. Jesus said to watch out for false teachers.
“Why would anyone imagine a God with less mercy than the common legal system?”
Which is why we leave it to God to make judgements between actions he undertakes to show mercy verses condemnation. The Bible only says what happens when men hear the truth and do not heed it, it does not say how God will judge folks who died as babes or never got the chance to fully hear the truth. That is why we must trust God to judge rightly and fairly. Christ said it would be more tolerable for those of Sodom in the judgment then it would be for those who rejected His message(when he sent the disciples out to preach); that gives you a clue as to how fair and loving God is in his judgment!
{**the Church saw in Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant,**
Maybe your church does, but the scriptures show the Ark of the Covenant to be one of many things that symbolize Jesus Christ himself.}
Indeed Jesus Christ and a vision of the future completion of each individual soul in Christ. We are all living Arks, all who are believers with the glory of the Holy Spirit existing in our hearts much like the Shekinah glory of God that rested between the two Cherubim on the lid/mercy seat of the Ark. Someday this reality will be perfected in us all and we shall all have glorified bodies and we shall all blaze as Christ did upon the Mount of transfiguration!
Ponder this, the Ark had a pair of Cherubim facing each other, on the left and on the right. Ponder on the fact that humans have a left and right hemisphere in their brains and tend to be dual natured but spiritually dead. Picture the restraint that begins in our natures as the Holy Spirit begins to act, bringing an inner balance as He writes God’s laws into our beings. Ponder again the Shekinah glory existing in total balance between the two Cherubim on the Mercy seat. Hence the Hebrews were given a vision of the future of redeemed man and of the first fruits, Jesus Christ but remained generally ignorant of it!
Right. Because Mary being a young Jewish woman, her wanting to follow the Law carries “no weight whatsoever.”
How foolish to dismiss the central covenant between God and his original chosen people. I guess if it proves Catholics wrong, one can discount anything.
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