Posted on 08/15/2010 3:56:22 PM PDT by TaraP
The Assumption is not a metaphor...
We must be very clear on this point: The Assumption is not a metaphor. The Blessed Virgin Mary was really taken up, her physical body was transformed. Pope Pius XII in Munificentissimus Deus (1950) declared that Mary, “after the completion of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven.” Both BODY and SOUL!
This means that her physical body was transformed and glorified (in a manner identical to Christ’s after his Resurrection), her soul was perfected with the Beatific Vision, and she was taken up.
Is heaven a place? In the General Audience of 21 July 1999, Pope John Paul II stated that heaven “is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity.”
In this statement, as (almost) always, the great Holy Father was in perfect accord with St. Thomas Aquinas – “Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us”.
What John Paul II wished to stress, and what is especially important to consider today, is that heaven is not to be understood in terrestrial terms.
Heaven is primarily a state of being and is certainly not a ‘place’ in the worldly sense of the term. Nevertheless, we come to a difficulty when we ask:
Where did Mary’s (and Christ’s) body go?
The simplest answer is: Heaven! But then we wonder: If heaven isn’t a place in the ordinary sense of the word, how could there be real human bodies present there?
The words of Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange (who taught John Paul II and oversaw his doctoral work) are most helpful: “Heaven means this place, and especially this condition, of supreme beatitude. Had God created no bodies, but only pure spirits, heaven would not need to be a place; it would signify merely the state of the angels who rejoice in the possession of God.
But in fact heaven is also a place. There we find the humanity of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the angels, and the souls of the saints. Though we cannot say with certitude where this place is to be found, or what its relation is to the whole universe, revelation does not allow us to doubt of its existence.”
Now do not think that John Paul II had contradicted his teacher when he said that heaven is not a physical place in the clouds! Garrigou-Lagrange and the great Pontiff are both getting at the same point: Heaven is first and foremost union with God; secondarily, heaven is the place where the bodies of Jesus and Mary abide, but this ‘place’ is not like every other place we think of – its relation to our universe is not clear.
Glorified bodies are very different than non-glorified bodies (though they are essentially the same). A glorified body does not move and take up space in exactly the same way as a non-glorified body does. Still, the glorified bodies of Jesus and Mary are somewhere, but this ‘somewhere’ will necessarily be a ‘place’ which is ‘glorified’ – just as the glorified body is different from non-glorified body, it resides in a ‘glorified place’ which is different from a non-glorified physical place.
Where is heaven? The simple answer is: This has not yet been revealed to us. However, we can say that it is certainly not on earth. Neither is it within the earth. It is not in clouds either. Heaven may be somewhere in our universe, far off – though we must be careful not to fall back into our terrestrial categories of space, distance, and location.
Perhaps it is most likely that heaven is outside the universe in what some Thomists have called “uncontained place”. In ST III, q.57, a.4, ad 2 (which is not in the oldest and best manuscripts) we read: “A place implies the notion of containing; hence the first container has the formality of first place, and such is the first heaven. Therefore, bodies need themselves to be in a place, insofar as they are contained by a heavenly body. But glorified bodies, Christ’s especially, do not stand in need of being so contained, because they draw nothing from the heavenly bodies, but from God through the soul.
So there is nothing to prevent Christ’s body from being beyond the containing radius of the heavenly bodies, and not in a containing place. Nor is there need for a vacuum to exist outside heaven, since there is no place there, nor is there any potentiality susceptive of a body, but the potentiality of reaching thither lies in Christ.”
This argument from the Summa claims that, because the glorified body in no way relies upon the non-glorified world, neither does it need to be contained in the universe. Thus, the bodies of Jesus and Mary may in fact be outside of the universe, outside of space and time, no longer contained by place. There is no space or place outside of the universe, but this is where the bodies of Christ and Mary are; since they need not be contained by physical place.
Therefore, it seems most likely that heaven is outside of our universe. It is not a ‘place’ as we usually think of ‘place’, but is a ‘non-containing place’, a ‘glorified place’. The glorified physical bodies of Jesus and Mary reside there
Somehow I knew you would trash the original to fit your theology ...
I trust the NASB translators more than I do you ... sorry.
caww:
You misunderstood what I wrote. The assumption of Mary is a prefiguration of the glory that all will share in heaven by virture of Christ Passion, Death and Resurrection. Mary has already received her reward for being faithful to God. So all who die in Christ will experience the Resurrection of the Dead. Again, Mary was “assumed into heaven” by God’s Power and thus is the model of what God’s Grace does to humanity, it makes us Holy and thus able to see God face to face in heaven.
I have not usurped Christ, it is your misunderstanding that makes you “think that I have” but I have not. Again, Mary’s Assumption was done by the Power of God and just as she was Assumed into heaven, all who die in CHrist will be “Assumed into heaven” when they experience the Resurrection of the Dead, which also is a result of Christ paschal mystery and thus by the power of God.
In the phrase “all have sinned,” what does the word “all” mean?
“but the sin nature is transmitted through the man not the woman.”
Might I remind you that it was the woman who first ate of the fruit so it would more likely be stated that sin was passed from the woman to the man.
How do you know?
Anyone taking up the New Testament and reading it through can see how fragmentary an account of events it gives not only of our Lord’s life on earth but especially of the history of the early Church. Peter is the “star” of the first half of Acts, but he abruptly disappears and we read nothing further about him. About Paul’s career prior to his arrest in Jerusalem we get just a sketchy account if twenty years of activity. and it leaves us —again—hanging about what happens to him. If he tells us nothing about the ultimate fate of Peter and Paul, is it surprising that he says nothing about the end of mother of the Lord?
Some will say that the story of the Assumption of Marry was a pious invention, but others will say they same about the first two chapters of the Gospel of Luke, which tells of marvels much more wondrous. From a certain perspective, each is an embellishment of the essential story, which —they think-is told by ‘ Mark.” It is only on the authority of the Church that we say that this is not the case. From my perspective, the same Church that guarantees the canon is the one that guarantees the truth of the Assumption. I simply do not believe that true Christianity is what can be stitched together by reading the Bible.
Sorry but what you stated still is not true...there was a resurrection when when Christ died....if any prefigure what awaits us it is those who rose then....and this happened before Mary died....so she was not the frontrunner by any means.
Though undoubtedly Mary is with the Lord...her role was pretty much over when Christ went to the temple and He said he must be about His Fathers business....that was a heads up to Mary.
The glorified physical bodies of Jesus and Mary reside there
Why do you pay heed to fantasies?
There is no biblical evidence that Mary's body is anything but buried after typical ancient Judean practice, there to await the resurrection. I give no credence in this to popish pronouncements, or the ravings of second century gnostic loonytunes.
Heaven
"The Bible tells us of the existence of a realm our mortal eyes cannot see...."
Youre preaching to the choir ... I never said Mary was sinless ... I agree with Rom 6.23 that "all" means all. What I am saying is that Jesus was fully human because he was born of Mary ... but He didnt have the sin nature because he was not conceived through relations with a man and its the man that transmits the sin nature.
It means “all”
“Jesus never once asked us to pray to Mary”
Look, buddy, we don’t pray to Mary the same way we pray to Christ. We pray to Christ as God. We pray to Mary as his human mother just as we ask each other to intercede for us as fellow believers. If you look at the word pray, you will see that it simply means ask. Prithee . . . . Because we do pray to God the word has taken on overtones of only meaning asking God. But it’s use with regard to Mary does not mean asking God. It is an ancient use of a term which was used both for humans and God. “Worship” once was used both for humans and for God but with totally different meaning depending on which. Look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary.
Out of your ignorance of the English language, you claim that using the term for Mary means we pray to her as God.
WE DO NOT. This is a fact. Lie about it all you want, but it is a lie because you have been warned—you have read these threads, by your own admission.
Before God and his Mother I call you out on this. We pray to Mary to ask her to intercede for us as a fellow human being and follower of her Son our Lord. We pray to Him as God Almighty become incarnate to save us.
Disagree all you want on whether Mary was sinless or not or whether Jesus honored her as His mother or not but if you repeat this claim that we pray to her equals prayer to Christ, you are a liar.
“I simply do not believe that true Christianity is what can be stitched together by reading the Bible.”
But if it contradicts the Bible we can say it’s not Biblical, therefore not true.
The Bible plainly says that evey person will die. The idea that Mary did not die but was “assumed” into heaven cannot be true. And if she was “assumed” into heaven without dying the Bible would surely have told us as it did in the case of Eligah and Enoch. It tells us that Elijah and Enoch are yet to return to earth to die.
Just because the Bible doesnt say what happened to Mary after death, it does not give us license to grant her assumption to Heaven.
Eve was deceived. Adam was not. Adam was our representative through male headship. He was not deceived but willingly disobeyed God ... HE is the source of sin and death in the world.
Paul makes this clear.
It’s not snotty to point out that you claimed more than can be claimed.
You said Jesus said. Now you walk it back to another “all men” will die, which begs the “exception” question.
Which is moot because, as I pointed out, we are noncommittal on whether Mary died or not. She might well have died. I would say far the majority of Catholic theologians believe she did die.
But you called us liars. Sounds a tad drippy to me.
Well, then, we shall see about this theory when two lesbians are able to conceive via unnatural means, I suppose. That day is rapidly approaching.
Such issue is more likely to be some soulless “Village Of The Damned” spawn than sinless, imho. It’s a return to what provoked God to sufficient rage to destroy the world once before. As in the days of Noah ...
Thanks, but I haven’t asked you. It is a specific question for a specific poster.
There is not one place in the New Testament that people pray to Mary or saints in the early church the apostles never wrote of it in the book of Acts or the epistles............ There is no Old Testament or New Testament teaching of praying to the dead...... and while they may be very much alive in heaven the Bible categorizes them as dead because they are no longer with us here on earth after their body is put to the ground.
Gonna do that without male sperm? ... I wont be holding my breath.
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