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To: Cronos; betty boop; Campion; Mad Dawg; count-your-change
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

Of a truth, any 'god' of a mortal's imagination is like a comic book super hero or super villain simply because it is a product of the imagination.

The Hindu 'gods' are examples, ditto for the 'gods' of Greek, Roman and Norse mythology. Ditto for Islam's Allah.

Great fiction writers - whether Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon Five, L.Ron Hubbard, Mohammed etc. - imagine powerful creaturely beings, some with form, some without, but all of them - including Star Trek's "Q" - are subordinated to Laws of Logic or reason, no doubt because they are merely figments of a mortal's imagination.

Even the 'force' of Star Trek which would roughly compare with the collective consciousness of Eastern mysticism - is constrained to the (multi)verse itself. There is no "beyond" the creature or the imagination of men.

The greater insight from the pagans comes from Plato who indeed sensed the beyond and the in between of time and timelessness.

That sensing does not arise from reasoning or physical sensory perception. Indeed, the Jewish mystics call it the neshama, the breath of God (Gen 2) which made Adam a living soul. The ordinary soul which all living creatures have is called the nephesh in Genesis 1. And the pivot wherein Adamic man (unlike bacteria, fish, daffodils and elephants) chooses to be Godly minded or earthly minded is called the ruach.

We see this choosing also in Romans 8.

The operative part in these insights from the Torah and from the words of Jesus in the Gospels, the writings of John and Paul is ruach Elohim - the Spirit of God. Without God Himself, we are blind - limited to our sensory perception and reasoning.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

When a man has the spiritual gift of "ears to hear" or "eyes to see" he does not need to rationalize God or imagine Who He might be or what He might be like.

He has spiritual perception, the awareness that God IS and Who He IS, the sense of not belonging "in" this physical creation. Physical signs and wisdom will not bring a person to this insight.

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deuteronomy 29:2-5

And again,

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. - I Corinthians 1:18-25

Plato went as far as a seeker could go absent the revelation of Jesus Christ. He had the sense of the beyond and extraordinary wisdom. Indeed, of all the schools of philosophy, Justin Martyr found his to be the most fulfilling. But it wasn't until he heard the revelation of Jesus Christ by the mouth of Trypho the Jew, that he was saved.

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:17

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

God's Name is I AM.

68 posted on 08/15/2010 8:42:29 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
God's Name is I AM.

Jesus' Name is I AM

John 8:53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? and the prophets are dead. Whom dost thou make thyself? 54Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him, and do keep his word. 56Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad. 57The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

Any mere creature who makes such a claim is a liar, and not to be followed.

And lest there be any doubt about what Jesus meant when He said that, check out the Jews' reaction to Him:

John 8:59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Why would they do that, except they thought He had blasphemed?

69 posted on 08/15/2010 8:52:56 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Cronos; YHAOS; kosta50; Diamond; Campion; Mad Dawg; count-your-change
Plato went as far as a seeker could go absent the revelation of Jesus Christ. He had the sense of the beyond and extraordinary wisdom. Indeed, of all the schools of philosophy, Justin Martyr found his to be the most fulfilling. But it wasn't until he heard the revelation of Jesus Christ by the mouth of Trypho the Jew, that he was saved.

An amazing confluence of persons and events, at a time of great spiritual and intellectual ferment.... That is, in the centuries immediately preceding the Incarnation of Christ, the Father's Holy Word, Logos of the Beginning and order of Creation, Alpha to Omega....

What Plato made explicit in his contemplation was his fully conscious awareness of a Presence beyond himself, the divine Nous, as his partner in a divine–human dialogue. This it was which drew Plato on his quest for Truth. He did not "contact" divine Nous by means of sensory perception or reasoning. Rather it was experienced as an "event" taking place in the movements of his own soul, being drawn by/from a Source outside of or "beyond" himself, a Source moreover perceived to be "Beyond" the natural world altogether.

Perhaps this is why Justin Martyr found Plato's school at Athens so attractive: Perhaps he had had similar experiences. But this was long after the decease of Plato himself. The point is, the two men had intimations of divine Truth that would only be made fully explicit in the Incarnation of Christ and in the descent of the rauch Elohim, the Holy Spirit of God. It has been said that not only the Old Testament, but also classical philosophy, found their "fulfillment" in the coming of Christ.

You wrote:

When a man has the spiritual gift of "ears to hear" or "eyes to see" he does not need to rationalize God or imagine Who He might be or what He might be like.

So very true!

Anselm of Cantebury — the great saint and doctor of the Catholic Church — was a man of soaring intelligence who placed the highest value on reason. Yet unlike his similarly gifted correspondent Gaunilo, a preeminent "man of reason," Anselm was convinced that faith always has priority over reason. In other words, it was illegitimate to "reason" one's way into faith. Gaunilo evidently thought (I am still studying their correspondence) that such an attempt is perfectly legitimate.

Anselm expresses his faith in these sublime lines [Proslogium XV]:

“O Lord, you are not only that than which a greater cannot be conceived, but you are also greater than what can be conceived.”

This of course means that God is not "reducible" to the categories of human reason in the first place. And that it is a grave error to believe otherwise.

Which I imagine is why God gave us His Revelation by means of the Holy Scriptures: We couldn't possibly figure out all of God's Will and intentions from our own native abilities, but needed God to provide us with guidance in these matters.

Anyhoot, just wool-gathering today, I guess. FWIW.

Thank you ever so much, dearest sister in Christ, for your splendid essay/post!

72 posted on 08/15/2010 1:00:38 PM PDT by betty boop (Those who do not punish bad men are really wishing that good men be injured. — Pythagoras)
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