Posted on 08/07/2010 3:38:50 PM PDT by Salvation
That was the most deranged, tortured reading of John 6 I have ever seen. Truly another gospel: Calvinism is of the devil. I’ll continue to pray for you.
Do you know what the gospel is? Do you know how one is saved?
The IRS?
I don't think so....
Where’s any remotely convincing evidence to the contrary of my points in that post?
Pontifical not air bluster & blather is not AT ALL convincing to most Proddys.
I think you’re misreading what I’m writing. I’ll try again.
I’m obviously a Catholic partisan, I’m a Catholic because I believe it works and makes sense, because I believe it is the truth. I’m not a Protestant because I don’t believe Protestantism works, I don’t believe it makes sense and I don’t believe it’s the truth. That shouldn’t offend you anymore than I should be offended that you don’t believe Catholicism is true.
If adhering to my beliefs makes me act just like the worldlings around me, then what’s the point of it? If the practical application of my Faith allows me to lie or cheat or steal or beat my wife or carry on like a hectoring jerk on an internet forum then it’s useless. My belief is that Catholics who adhere to the Faith will be exemplars of 1 Corinthians 13, or at least will be working on it.
I don’t have similar expectations of Protestants because I think Protestantism is of the devil. Please notice the distinction.
So when a Catholic is “defending the faith” and the defense is the equivalent of “You’re ugly and your mother dresses you funny” I think that’s a failure of the person to faithfully reflect the Church. When a Protestant is “defending the faith” and the defense is the equivalent of “You’re ugly and your mother dresses you funny” I think that’s a failure of Protestantism.
. . . evidently in one of Augustine’s brighter, more honest-with-self moments.
Do all the church fathers agree with each other?
And all this time I've been trusting the Church, guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus Christ. I should have just popped open my Bible and saved myself a lot of trouble.
Salvation is the work of Christ, not the work of men..so it is not a lot of trouble
1Ti 4:9 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.
There is something in the American Catholic church tho, that supports liberal views. Our former priest (who I speak with on Face Book) is so liberal, I can hardly believe it. I have known many liberal voting Catholics thru the years (having been Catholic myself). It always surprised me, but it’s something that cannot be denied. Many of them vote liberal/democrat. I don’t know if it’s true in the rest of the world.
2)They are told even if they did they can not say what it means
3)The magisterium has never written a systematic theology or “official” inspired commentary of the entire bible.
Other than the proof texting in the catechism, scripture’s teachings and meanings is undefined by the catholic church
THAT’S my sense, too.
Can it be that there are people who have no idea what an analogy or a metaphor is?
Jesus compares Peter to a rock and Himself to a builder. Fine. One metaphor. Which is superior, the rock or the builder? How is calling Peter a rock usurping Jesus when, where Peter is the rock, Jesus is the builder?
In other places, other metaphors and analogies, Jesus is compared to a rock. Either a cornerstone or the kingstone of an arch or a capstone. In THOSE analogies, it would be silly to make Peter analagous to a the rock of foundation.
so no matter what a non-Catholic says and posts, Catholics can tell them that they're wrong and that they don't *really * know or understand Catholic teaching.
But anyone who insists that Peter is NOT the rock of Foundation in any sense OR who insists that he IS the rock of Foundation in EVERY sense IS wrong. He is wrong because he doesn't 'get' the idea of a 'figure of speech.'
And Iscool who taunted us with suggestions first that the pope never washes feet and then that he only does so in splendid ceremonial, now taunts us with suggesting that the catechism says Peter is NOT the rock of foundation.
When these suggestions are looked into, they turn out to be false.
Maybe if the approach were not one given to "I'm right and you're wrong," there would be a little more factual truth in some of the posts, a little less concern with 'winning' and a little greater ability to perceive what is actually going on.
Methinks that understanding of all the factors, motivations and goals
is GREATLY lacking.
"....do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing....-------------
-- Matthew 6:3b
Who, then, can be saved?Related threads:Catholics can be saved if they believe the Word of God as taught by the Church and if they obey the commandments.
Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found.
Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled.
Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will.
Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice.God’s saving grace, channeled through Christ the one Mediator, leaves no one unassisted. But that same grace brings obligations to all who receive it. They must not receive the grace of God in vain. Much will be demanded of those to whom much is given.
-- concluding paragraph (formatting mine) of Who Can Be Saved?,by Cardinal Avery Dulles, found at Catholic Education Resource CenterIt “is not the case,” [Cardinal Levada] said, as some have argued, "that the Church of Christ can subsist in churches outside the Catholic Church."
-- from the thread “Somewhat surprised” Cardinal Levada tries to clarify Vatican statement on non-Catholic churchesThe multiplicity of theological positions present within the Catholic Church. These positions vary according to which premises or postulates are used in reflecting on the sources of revelation, according to the methodology employed, and according to the cultural tradition within which theology does its speculation. On the first bases, the two principal philosophical premises are the Platonic, stressed in Augustinianaism; and the Aristotelian, emphasized in Thomism. On the second level, theologies differ in terms of their mainly biblical, or doctrinal, or historical, or pastoral methodology. And on the third basis, the culture of a people helps to shape the theology they develop, as between the more mystical East and the more practical West, or the more reflective Mediterranean and the more scientific Anglo-Saxon. The Church not only permits these diversities but encourages them, always assuming that theologians who are Catholic are also respectful of the rule of faith and obedient to the magisterium of the hierarchy under the Bishop of Rome.
-- from the thread Catholic Word of the Day: THEOLOGICAL PLURALISM, 11-10-09
The Radio Replies Series: "The Failure of Protestantism"
Radio Replies Volume One: Protestantism Erroneous
Radio Replies Volume One: Luther
Radio Replies Volume One: Anglicanism
Radio Replies Volume One: Greek Orthodox Church
Radio Replies Volume One: Wesley
Radio Replies Volume One: Baptists
Radio Replies Volume One: Adventists
Radio Replies Volume One: Salvation Army
Radio Replies Volume One: Catholic Intolerance Radio Replies Volume One: "Outside the Church no salvation"
Congregation for the Defense of the Faith's June 29 statement, approved by Pope Benedict XVI:
"Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church”
At Long Last..... [New President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity]
“Somewhat surprised” Cardinal Levada tries to clarify Vatican statement on non-Catholic churches
Pope: Some Christian Denominations Not True Churches
If it isn't Roman Catholic then it's not a proper Church, Pope tells Christians
Protestants aren't proper Christians, says Pope
Vatican says other Christian churches "wounded" (Non-Catholics not fully Christian)
Vatican reiterates hardline on primacy of Catholic Church
Survey of recent news articles
Vatican Church Declaration: A Radical Departure from Traditional Teaching
Pope's declaration of Catholic primacy has protestants, other faiths miffed
'Kill the pope!' [WND's Joseph Farah on the Vatican announcement re "true Churches"]
Nobody's picking a church fight
No, I'm Not Offended [R. Albert Mohler, Jr./Southern Baptist Theological Seminary]
[PCUSANEWS] Stated Clerk issues statement to Presbyterians concerning latest Vatican declaration
Pope's Anti-Protestant Diatribe Signed for Pope by Sex Molestation Advocate, Cardinal Levada!
The churches that aren't ["what is the point of religious dialogue with the Vatican?"]
Cardinal says Protestants overreacted to Vatican document, seeks to reassure them
Pope's comments irrelevant to non-Catholics (CNN Opine)
Cardinal Levada: ‘Union with the Catholic Church is the Goal of Ecumenism’
The Roman Catholic Church on Non-Christians and Salvation [Catechism excerpts]
Always provided that the party of the second part is not in fact ugly and sartorially challenged and has not made his or her as the case may be personal attractiveness and haberdasherous excellence the topic of conversation. In all such cases the party of the first part may indeed say You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny, especially in cases when the party of the second party is dressed by his mother, whether she wears combat boots or not.
(Sorry I've been reading court opinions today. It's affecting my brain.)
Jesus refers to the cup as the fruit of the vine in all three Gospels where the Last Supper is recounted.
And besides, why not take it literally when Jesus said His flesh was bread? That His was made of bread dough?
Or that He is green and leafy because He said He was the true vine?
Or that He was made of wood, because He said that He was the gate?
Christ died once for all and is seated in heaven at the right hand of the Father. His work on earth to pay the penalty for sin was accomplished. He Himself said that it was finished.
The Last Supper being a symbolic representation of His death and a foretelling of His coming again, both of which things communion commemorates, fits in well with all the rest of Scripture, as the Passover meal was symbolic.
Nor could Jesus have broken the Law and eaten blood and remained the pure and spotless Lamb of God who could have died for the sins of the world. He would have defiled Himself and made Himself unclean by eating blood so He could not have done it at the Last Supper.
And no Catholic has yet answered the question of just when the Eucharist becomes the body and blood of Christ and why it’s a white wafer and not a chunk of raw, bloody flesh, if it’s literally turned into His flesh and blood.
May I quote James to you?
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
So the thief is also a murder in Gods eyes.
No where does Jesus or any apostle say or imply that one is saved by works.
The book of James was written to a converted church , not heathens seeking salvation .
It tells them how their conversion is seen by the unsaved world . It is not about becoming saved or being saved. It is about the fruit of your salvation.
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
This is an amplification of the teaching of Jesus that we know a tree by the fruit it bears. >B>It is how we know the saved from the unsaved. It does not declare that the man has faith ...but that he SAYS he has faith.
This addresses a hollow profession of faith , not a saving one .Can a hollow profession save him? NO, any more than works can save.This scripture says to the church that this faith is non existent , it is dead.
The bible is clear that it is God that gives the faith and it is God that ordains the works of the saved
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Hbr 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Our salvation is all of grace .. 100% Not graces we earn, for then it would not be grace
According to the Athanasian Creed, not a chance:
“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly
He therefore that will be saved is must think thus of the Trinity.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.”
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