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To: American Constitutionalist; All
So what saves ? the law ? or Jesus Christ ?

Well, neither one saves. What saves is faith in HaShem,the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the creator of the universe and worship Him Only. And for the Jew, do your best to follow the blueprint of life, the Torah and it's Law. When we do the Law, we are doing the will of G-d on earth and following the Law out love of G-d is a delight (Psalm 119) not a curse. Following the Law repairs a broken and fallen world. Following the Law by rote, superfically, hypocritically, without love and without faith in HaShem.....would be in vain.

Jesus Christ came to full fill the law completely where man could not, Jesus Christ satisfied all of the law's demands, man could not, nor can he ever full fill all of God's demands.

Jesus did not fulfill the Law. Nor is fulfilling the Law required of us for salvation. No where in Tanakh (OT) does it say they we have to observe the Law perfectly and if we dont, we are going to hell. Futhermore, no where in Tanakh does it say the Messiah will perform the Law perfectly on our behalf.

On the contrary, G-d forbids vicarious human atonement.

In Deuteronomy 24:16 it specifically says this:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses tries to offer himself as an atonement for the sins of the people. To be written out of God's book, means to be written out of the Book of Life, which means Moses was asking to die for the sins of the People. God's response was "No, it does not work that way, each man dies for his own sin:"

And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Eternal; perhaps I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the Eternal, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Eternal said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee...

The whole of chapter 18 of the book of Ezekiel is about this idea, that no one can die for someone else's sin. Further, this chapter of Ezekiel teaches us that all we have to do for God's forgiveness is to stop doing the Bad and start doing the Good, and God will forgive us. Nowhere in this chapter does it say that we have to have a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.

The word of the Eternal came unto me again, saying, What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? As I live, saith the Eternal God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Eternal God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. [Ezekiel 18:1-4; 20-24; 26-27]

To say that the law saves is to say that the shedding of Jesus Christ's blood was of no effect.... therefore, considering it as the same as animal blood.

It was of no effect. A) G-d forbids human sacrifice and B) Jesus death on the cross was not according the to the Laws of sin sacrifice or guilt sacrifice. His throat was not slit for rapid blood loss, his blood was not sprinkled on the alter and his fat burned. Jesus died by suffication, not blood loss at the throat.

In Deuteronomy, God calls Human sacrifice something that He hates, and an abomination to Him!

Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the Eternal thy God: for every abomination to the Eternal, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [Deuteronomy 12:30-31]

In Jeremiah, God tells us that Human sacrifice is such horrible a concept to Him, that it did not even come into His mind

Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Eternal, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but The Valley of Slaughter. [Jeremiah 19:4-6]

And yet we are to then turn around and believe that God changed His mind, and required human sacrifice, and then it was the sacrifice of His own human son that God wanted? After telling the Jews to stay away from pagan practices, and pagan beliefs, God then changes His mind and says, "Okay, now go ahead and believe in a human sacrifice, just as these very pagans believe?"

Micah answers this question well:

Micah 6:6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

7Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God

The book of Hebrews was written to show how much better the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was compared to the law, and animal blood sacrifice, how much better the New Convenient was than the Old that was passing away.

I am sorry but the book of Hebrews is just wrong. It misquotes the holy scriptures, it creates theology whole cloth with no justification and violates Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

But Hebrews says: “For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the Law.” Hebrews 7:12

The Preisthood did not change. Jesus cant possibly be a Priest, he is not a Levite. Nor is he of the order of Melchizedek, who did have a genealogy, he was Shem and Shem was the forunner of the Aaronic preisthood. He recieved tithes because Abraham was still Abram at the time and had not recieved the final covenant nor gone through the 10 trials. There is no new preisthood.

The writer of Hebrews says: “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

He is wrong. The era of the new covenant has not arrived yet. Look what Jeremiah has to say about it:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah – not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out to the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My Law in their mind, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34

Do we not have to teach people about G-d now? Does everyone have a knowlege of G-d? From the least to the greatest? No. The new covenant has not happened yet.

Ezekiel words it a little differently:

“Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone. Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.”’ “And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.” Ezekiel 11:16-20

Has the ingathering been completed? No. And as you can see, the people will observe the Law. The writer of Hebrews is wrong.

The writer of Hebrews intentionally misquotes Leviticus 17:11

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Lev 17: 10And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

12Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

Leviticus is saying "dont eat blood" If you do, you will be cut-off! Why? Because the only purpose of the blood is atonement...it is not food! It doesnt say, without the shedding of blood there is no atonement. Lev 5:11 makes it clear...no blood sacrifice is required...a flour sacrifice will forgive sin.

11But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.

12Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, even a memorial thereof, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: it is a sin offering.

There are many other verses in the Tanakh that talk about forgiveness without a blood sacrifice. Prayer, repentance, fasting and charity are among the most often used means of forgiveness.

16 posted on 08/06/2010 12:10:17 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960
Yeshua hamashiach !!

Jesus the Messiah, enough said...

Jesus saves !
17 posted on 08/06/2010 4:02:56 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (There the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USAis no civility in)
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To: blasater1960

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALYjR6sldiA&feature=related


18 posted on 08/09/2010 10:23:31 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (There the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USAis no civility in)
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To: blasater1960

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNgbBYdDZA8


19 posted on 08/09/2010 10:35:56 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (There the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USAis no civility in)
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To: blasater1960
Those who cling to the hope of the Messiah have missed the bus, there was a time frame, a open window for the time the Messiah would come.
Around 70 AD was when that time frame ended.
Jesus Christ was the ONLY ONE who could have full fill all of what the Old Testament told us about the Messiah.
20 posted on 08/09/2010 10:41:20 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (There the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USAis no civility in)
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To: blasater1960
Why is it so hard for some to accept and believe that GOD himself can come here to Earth as a human like us ?
It's because of preconceived notions of religious ideas that are human invented.

21 posted on 08/09/2010 10:47:02 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (There the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USAis no civility in)
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To: blasater1960
You keep going on about how GOD forbidden men to offer human sacrifices, and in that, you are correct, however, there is no law where GOD forbidden himself to offer himself up as a sacrifice for us.
Jesus Christ IS the sacrificial lamb of GOD.
The whole OLD TESTAMENT is full of foreshadows of what is to come. foreshadows of Christ.
Those who don't want to see, will never see, those who want to see are already blessed.. that is what Jesus meant as the blind leading the blind, though they say they see, yet, they are blind as a blindfolded bat in a dark cave.
22 posted on 08/09/2010 10:53:20 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (There the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USAis no civility in)
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To: blasater1960
One of the reasons's why some people don't want to accept or believe in Jesus Christ is because they don't want to give up their pride and religion.
Religion is a false cloak of pride to appear to be serving GOD.
Religion give people the sense of self righteousness where they can go out and show people how religious they are and how ( self ) righteous they are.
Accepting and believing in Jesus Christ is humbling, and you have to humble yourself before GOD.
Being saved by Grace, the Grace of GOD, takes away the self boasting and pride one has of their own self righteousness.
That, there, is one of reasons who some people can't, won't, accept Jesus Christ, their pride won't let them, until GOD humbles them.
23 posted on 08/09/2010 11:55:47 PM PDT by American Constitutionalist (There the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USAis no civility in)
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To: blasater1960
Jesus Christ IS God in the flesh, God made human.

Get over it and accept it.
Even God foretold what was going to take place....

6. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon[d] his shoulder, and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
( actually, Government here means, that all authority was given unto Jesus Christ ) ....

Isaiah 9:6 .... read it for you self, check it out, it's there in your bible, unless you refuse to read this part.

Here is another one...
He shall offer himself up as a sacrifice for the sins of many..
Isaiah 53

1. Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2. He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
[b] 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ; by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

12. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g] and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h] because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
24 posted on 08/10/2010 3:28:36 AM PDT by American Constitutionalist (There the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USAis no civility in)
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To: blasater1960

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlhKK4hjS2k&NR=1


25 posted on 08/10/2010 4:14:04 AM PDT by American Constitutionalist (There the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USAis no civility in)
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