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Side by side ... the Pope and John Knox
The Scotsman ^ | July 26, 2010 | MARTYN MCLAUGHLIN

Posted on 07/27/2010 10:36:11 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

HE IS the man who led Scotland's split with the Catholic Church but when the Pope returns to Scotland later this year, John Knox will usher him through the streets of Edinburgh.

In what has been hailed as a symbol of the strong relations between the Scottish Catholic Church and the Kirk, the leader of the Reformation will be represented in a parade by an actor alongside a host of other historical figures.

While the inclusion of the figure who revoked the Pope's authority in Scotland may come as a surprise to some, the Catholic Church said the "joyous, inclusive and charitable" parade was designed to reflect Scotland's shared Christian heritage.

The Church of Scotland has welcomed the concept and said it would serve to further strengthen the bonds between the churches.

Knox will be among historical characters depicted in the St Ninian's Day parade, which will mark Pope Benedict XVI's state visit to Scotland. Other figures who will be portrayed include Eric Liddell, the Olympic athlete and Protestant missionary.

Peter Kearney, spokesman for the Catholic Church in Scotland, told The Scotsman that Knox was an "important" figure in Scottish Christian history.

He said: "The underlying theme behind the event is a celebration of unity, and recognising Scotland's shared Christian heritage. We have a shared Christian history and we are celebrating that."

Mr Kearney added that Ninian, too, was a saint held in common by all Scottish Christians.

A spokesman for the Church of Scotland agreed on the importance of recognising the nation's Christian history.

He said: "When Pope John Paul II met the Moderator of the General Assembly on his visit to Scotland, it represented a milestone in relations between the two churches, which greatly improved as a result, and we would hope that the Pope's visit later this year will strengthen the links even further.

"It is a sign of a healthy nation that diversity within the Christian community is something to be celebrated as opposed to a source of division and struggle.

"It is a gift to those of us of a Protestant persuasion that, by including this figure, the Catholic Church is contributing to the celebrations of the Reformation."

Earlier this year, the close ties between the two faiths was recognised with the creation of a "joint liturgy" for the reaffirmation of baptismal vows.

The two churches, historically divided along sectarian lines, will also join together later this year in a joint ceremony at Edinburgh's St Giles Cathedral to mark the 450th anniversary of the Reformation, which heralded the creation of the Presbyterian Church when it split from the Catholic Church.

The Pope's arrival in Scotland on 16 September coincides with the feast of St Ninian, a 4th-century Scottish saint credited as one of the first to bring the Gospel of Christ here.

Along with the procession of historical figures - which will include Mary Queen of Scots, Bonnie Prince Charlie, William Wallace, St Andrew, Robert the Bruce, St Margaret, St Columba and Alexander Fleming - the parade will feature schoolchildren from across Scotland and 1,000 pipers.

Earlier this month, a leading Free Church theologian accused the Scottish Government of "airbrushing" the Reformation out of history, while celebrating the Pope's visit. Professor Donald Macleod, former principal of the Free Church College in Edinburgh, said the SNP administration was in "Knox denial". Critical of the cost involved in the Pope's visit at a time of public-service cutbacks, he also questioned if Scots were "suckers for funny costumes, and love to see old men dressed in ancient Roman togas?".

Historian Professor Tom Devine, a Catholic, has described the lack of recognition of the 450th anniversary as "scandalous".

First Minister Alex Salmond has said requests to the government for support in marking the anniversary would be considered.

Knox on Catholicism

"The tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church, the very antichrist and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks."

"The iniquity of your bishops is more than manifest; their filthy lives infect the air; the innocent blood which they shed cries (for] vengeance in the ears of our God; the idolatry and abomination, which they commit openly, and without punishment maintain, does corrupt and defile the whole land."

"Yea, we doubt not to prove the kingdom of the pope to be the kingdom and power of antichrist."

"When the bishops of Rome, the very antichrists, had (partly by fraud and partly by violence) usurped the superiority of some places in Italy, and most unjustly had spoiled the emperors of their rents and possessions, and had also murdered some of their officers (as histories do witness), then began pope after pope to practise and devise how they should be exempted from judgment of princes, and from the equity of laws."


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: johnknox
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Knox on Catholicism

"The tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church, the very antichrist and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks."

"The iniquity of your bishops is more than manifest; their filthy lives infect the air; the innocent blood which they shed cries (for] vengeance in the ears of our God; the idolatry and abomination, which they commit openly, and without punishment maintain, does corrupt and defile the whole land."

"Yea, we doubt not to prove the kingdom of the pope to be the kingdom and power of antichrist."

"When the bishops of Rome, the very antichrists, had (partly by fraud and partly by violence) usurped the superiority of some places in Italy, and most unjustly had spoiled the emperors of their rents and possessions, and had also murdered some of their officers (as histories do witness), then began pope after pope to practise and devise how they should be exempted from judgment of princes, and from the equity of laws."

1 posted on 07/27/2010 10:36:12 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

Shameful ecumenism.


2 posted on 07/27/2010 10:57:35 AM PDT by refreshed
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To: Alex Murphy

The next papal visit to Ireland can feature a photo of the pope with Oliver Cromwell.


3 posted on 07/27/2010 11:02:08 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
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To: Alex Murphy; NYer; Salvation; Pyro7480; Coleus; narses; annalex; Campion; OpusatFR; Natural Law; ...
Writings of the Calvinist that the Presbyterians revere:

"The tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church, the very antichrist and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks."

"Yea, we doubt not to prove the kingdom of the pope to be the kingdom and power of antichrist."

"When the bishops of Rome, the very antichrists, had (partly by fraud and partly by violence) usurped the superiority of some places in Italy, and most unjustly had spoiled the emperors of their rents and possessions, and had also murdered some of their officers (as histories do witness), then began pope after pope to practise and devise how they should be exempted from judgment of princes, and from the equity of laws."

Now, have the Calvinists revised Scripture yet again to fit their anti-Catholic agenda? Do they have a translation of the Revelation of Saint John that speaks of multiple antichrists?

No theologian that I'm aware of has ever made a credible claim that the antichrist will be anything other than a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, there is NOTHING in the Bible that would indicate that the antichrist is a group. I guess anti-Catholicism trumps YOPIOS every time.

More from the Scottish demigod:

"The iniquity of your bishops is more than manifest; their filthy lives infect the air; the innocent blood which they shed cries (for] vengeance in the ears of our God; the idolatry and abomination, which they commit openly, and without punishment maintain, does corrupt and defile the whole land."

Rather odd that the man who said this made it a CRIME to say the Mass in Scotland and threatened practicing Catholics with death. But don't worry, I'm sure Calvinists will be along shortly to claim the they are the originators of religious freedom (actually the origens of modern religious freedom dates from 1598 when Henri IV the CATHOLIC king of France issued the Edict of Nantes).

4 posted on 07/27/2010 11:21:49 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Imho, this is carrying things to such an extreme as to be almost laughable, if one excludes the “threatening practicing Catholics with death” part, that is. That part isn’t quite so funny.


5 posted on 07/27/2010 11:26:24 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

He was a madman who sent thugs to threaten priests while they were saying mass.


6 posted on 07/27/2010 11:30:31 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
Now, have the Calvinists revised Scripture yet again to fit their anti-Catholic agenda? Do they have a translation of the Revelation of Saint John that speaks of multiple antichrists?

ROTFL! Do the Catholics have a translation of the Revelation of Saint John that speaks of any antichrists?

No theologian that I'm aware of has ever made a credible claim that the antichrist will be anything other than a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, there is NOTHING in the Bible that would indicate that the antichrist is a group. I guess anti-Catholicism trumps YOPIOS every time.

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour."
-- 1 John 2:18

"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."
-- 2 John 2:7

I guess some armchair Catholic apologists don't find the Apostle John to be a credible theologian. Others, I'm told, teach that the Apostle Paul was a loony who was off his meds.
7 posted on 07/27/2010 11:33:18 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: wagglebee

He does sound insane.


8 posted on 07/27/2010 11:38:45 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Alex Murphy; wagglebee

Wagglebee was talking about the last book in the Bible, and you quote from the 2 epistles of St. John?


9 posted on 07/27/2010 11:42:33 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480; Alex Murphy
And the multiple antichrists that Saint John spoke of in his epistles are heretics who will oppose the Church and be enemies of THE antichrist (about whom so much was revealed to John and he passed to us in his Revelation).

Read 1 John 2:18 again and it is very clear that he writes of THE antichrist and others:

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour.

10 posted on 07/27/2010 11:52:46 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
....the multiple antichrists that Saint John spoke of in his epistles are heretics who will oppose the Church and be enemies of THE antichrist (about whom so much was revealed to John and he passed to us in his Revelation).

Serious question, wagglebee: are you a convert to Catholicism? Were you previously a pretrib baptist?

11 posted on 07/27/2010 12:05:59 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy
Nope, born a Catholic. I had a grandfather whose converted from Anglicanism as a young child and one side of my family had some Methodists back in the mid 19the century, but no Baptists anywhere in my family that I am aware of

By the way, I had a typo in that portion of mine that you posted, it should read:

the multiple antichrists that Saint John spoke of in his epistles are heretics who will oppose the Church and be forerunners of THE antichrist (about whom so much was revealed to John and he passed to us in his Revelation).

12 posted on 07/27/2010 12:15:54 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
Nope, born a Catholic. I had a grandfather whose converted from Anglicanism as a young child and one side of my family had some Methodists back in the mid 19the century, but no Baptists anywhere in my family that I am aware of

I ask because in Amillennialism and Postmillennialism, the two eschatologies found most in Reformed Presbyterianism, there is little (if any) teaching done on the anti-Christ as being a single, historic, future individual. And the Revelation of St John does not use the phrase "anti-christ" anywhere in it's twenty-two chapters, so for someone to say that "Calvinists...have a translation of the Revelation of Saint John that speaks of multiple antichrists" says far more regarding the ignorance of the speaker than it does of Calvinists.

But such an emphasis comes up, however, in baptistic Premillennialism (either pre- mid- or post-trib), where the Revelation's "Beast" is unquestioningly viewed as being "the" future anti-Christ. I often read armchair Catholic apologetics that make the exeedingly sloppy mistake of charging their Reformed opponents with believing in all manner of evangelical/baptist ideas ("trail of blood", "any-minute rapture", "snake handling" and such). And such apologists expect to be taken seriously? Thus, let me take this opportunity to point out the very, very obvious to all the likeminded dolts out there:

John Knox was a Presbyterian.

13 posted on 07/27/2010 12:46:43 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy
And the Revelation of St John does not use the phrase "anti-christ" anywhere in it's twenty-two chapters,

I am aware of that, though it does speak extensively ABOUT the antichrist and nearly all theologians agree that this will be a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL.

so for someone to say that "Calvinists...have a translation of the Revelation of Saint John that speaks of multiple antichrists" says far more regarding the ignorance of the speaker than it does of Calvinists.

I can see where the confusion comes from and I apolgize for it.

But such an emphasis comes up, however, in baptistic Premillennialism (either pre- mid- or post-trib), where the Revelation's "Beast" is unquestioningly viewed as being "the" future anti-Christ. I often read armchair Catholic apologetics that make the exeedingly sloppy mistake of charging their Reformed opponents with believing in all manner of evangelical/baptist ideas ("trail of blood", "any-minute rapture", "snake handling" and such). And such apologists expect to be taken seriously? Thus, let me take this opportunity to point out the very, very obvious to all the likeminded dolts out there:

John Knox was a Presbyterian.

However, the FACT is that this article has John Knox quotes where he calls the popes antichrists and sons of perdition.

Are you saying that the Calvinist perdition is that the Beast of Revelation is an ongoing office?

14 posted on 07/27/2010 1:04:31 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
"Knox, however, cannot be regarded as an apocalyptic thinker in any strict sense. Rather, he came early in the British Protestant apocalyptic tradition; and while his ideas, world view, and rhetoric contained many apocalyptic features, other elements common to apocalyptic thought were not discernable in Knox's writings. For example, he was not a millennialist, nor did he write a history of the church based on the symbols and chapters of the Apocalypse of John, and he emphasized the admonitory more than the predictive element of prophecy."
-- from the essay "John Knox and Apocalyptic Thought" by Richard Kyle, Tabor College
as published in The Sixteenth Century Journal, XV, No. 4, 1944.
15 posted on 07/27/2010 1:11:56 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy
So, he just wanted to criticize the papacy apocalyptic rhetoric?

It's also worth noting that the Apostle Paul never used the term "antichrist" (unless it is in a Protestant translation that I've never seen).

"The tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church, the very antichrist and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks."

16 posted on 07/27/2010 1:34:11 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
Me: the Revelation of St John does not use the phrase "anti-christ" anywhere in it's twenty-two chapters

You: I am aware of that, though it does speak extensively ABOUT the antichrist and nearly all theologians agree that this will be a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL.

I read recently that (all?) Catholics believe the apostle Paul was not a Trinitarian, and that the concept of the Trinity was not (cannot be?) derived from scripture. If that's the case (and you agree with it), I'd like to know how you justify saying that the Book of Revelation speaks "extensively" of the anti-Christ when it never uses the specific terms.

17 posted on 07/27/2010 1:47:46 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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To: Alex Murphy; MarkBsnr
I read recently that (all?) Catholics believe the apostle Paul was not a Trinitarian,

The fact that the Trinity isn't specifically taught in Paul's epistles doesn't mean he wasn't a Trinitarian.

and that the concept of the Trinity was not (cannot be?) derived from scripture.

Do you have a link supporting that claim? Because I believe the Trinity is absolutely taught in Scripture.

I'd like to know how you justify saying that the Book of Revelation speaks "extensively" of the anti-Christ when it never uses the specific terms.

Theologians have long agreed that the beast of the Revelation was the antichrist.

Why does Knox say that Paul wrote of the antichrist since Paul never used the term?

I'm not the one who originally made a big deal about the actual term "antichrist" being used, you did.

18 posted on 07/27/2010 1:59:53 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Alex Murphy
I read recently that (all?) Catholics believe

Pray tell, how do you extrapolate the musings of one Catholic apologist on the Internet to a claim about what "Catholics believe", much less what "all Catholics believe"?

19 posted on 07/27/2010 3:26:00 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
Pray tell, how do you extrapolate the musings of one Catholic apologist on the Internet to a claim about what "Catholics believe", much less what "all Catholics believe"?

Simple - by extrapolating from the number of Catholics who have taken their fellow Catholic apologist to task, and who have posted apologetics refuting that nonsense.

20 posted on 07/27/2010 3:41:13 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Posting news feeds, making eyes bleed, he's hated on seven continents")
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