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To: 1010RD; betty boop; MHGinTN
me: "Invisible" in reference to Creation would mean creation ex nihilo

You: This statement of yours, dear Sister, is presumption and supposition. You are taking the Book of Hebrews out of context and choosing the wrong words. Furthermore, God is not invisible, but simply unseen by certain people.

We've discussed this before IIRC and it would be worth starting back at Genesis 1:1 to understand it correctly. Creation ex nihilo is not a necessary condition of this creation.

There is not a "before" to God. Time is part of the creation, not a property of, or restriction on, the Creator of it.

God is uncaused, He is the Creator of causation. He has no ancestor. He is the Creator ex nihilo of "all that there is" both spiritual and physical - whether universe, multi-verse, multi-world, ekpyrotic, cyclic, etc. - regardless of dimensionality.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

His Names, I AM, He IS (YHwH), Alpha and Omega, The Lord, The Almighty, God Almighty (El Shaddai) all reveal that Truth.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:8

He is not “a” God, but “the” God. He is not “a” Creator, but “the” Creator.

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

That is the Christian confession. Christ is The Lord - not just "a" lord.

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. –I Corinthians 12:3

He is not God the Creator of some but of all:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

And again,

The Tetragrammaton (YHVH) is used as a proper name of God, denoting Him as the ultimate Source of all existence, high above the universe and its laws. The Tetragrammaton is therefore interpreted to mean that God "was, is and will be," indicating that He is outside the realm of space, time and all other attributes of nature. Therefore, when the Tetragrammaton is used in relation to man, it indicates that God is acting in mercy, transcending all the rules of providence.

AISH: Writing the Torah

In appearance, Yhwh () is the third person singular imperfect "ḳal" of the verb ("to be"), meaning, therefore, "He is," or "He will be," or, perhaps, "He lives," the root idea of the word being,probably, "to blow," "to breathe," and hence, "to live." With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person—"I am" (, from , the later equivalent of the archaic stem ). The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives," the abstract conception of pure existence being foreign to Hebrew thought. There is no doubt that the idea of life was intimately connected with the name Yhwh from early times. He is the living God, as contrasted with the lifeless gods of the heathen, and He is the source and author of life (comp. I Kings xviii.; Isa. xli. 26-29, xliv. 6-20; Jer. x. 10, 14; Gen. ii. 7; etc.). So familiar is this conception of God to the Hebrew mind that it appears in the common formula of an oath, "ḥai Yhwh" (= "as Yhwh lives"; Ruth iii. 13; I Sam. xiv. 45; etc.).

Jewish Encyclopedia

The bottom line is that I am completely certain of Who God IS. That is my testimony: God is not a hypothesis. He lives. His Name is I AM. I’ve known Him for a half century and counting.

When the Name of God is at issue in a debate on this forum, I simply enter my testimony. I cannot be moved to deny a Name of God even hypothetically.

Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. – Psalms 91:4

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. – Matt 10:32-33

And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God. - Deuteronomy 12:3-4

For that reason, I decline your offer to debate creation ex nihilo. It is not open to debate in my book.

“Hallowed be thy Name.”


851 posted on 10/10/2010 9:03:50 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; MHGinTN
There is not a "before" to God. Time is part of the creation, not a property of, or restriction on, the Creator of it.

Agreed, but then you immediately step off the reservation into eisegesis. You have only the Bible to base your beliefs on. Cutting and pasting it into convenient bits doesn't make your case. You lose the context and thus the idea. Eventually, you lose your way.

You go on to make several presumptions not proclaimed in the Bible. Genesis 1:1 says what it says and nothing more.

The Midrash also states that the Torah was the blueprint used for creation. We could go round and round with Rabbinic tradition.

Genesis 1:1 reads: New Living Translation In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The use of the word "created" is arbitrary. You could just as accurately use the word "formed", perhaps even more accurately as to the eastern mind creating order out of chaos is the greatest act of God. Here's another translation:

Young's Literal Translation In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --

The Rabbis recognize that surmising as to what occurred prior to Gen. 1:1 is unwise. Not knowing God you then aspire to describe his attributes. This is why for Jews Christianity is such an offense. Are you familiar with the Mitzvot?

These are the Mosaic Law from the Torah. There are some 613, but the gross number doesn't matter. The first six are universal and always apply. Of those first six the first three are very familiar to Christians:

Ex. 20:2 New Living Translation "I am the LORD your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of your slavery.

#2: Exodus 20:3 English Standard Version (©2001)“You shall have no other gods before me." (Interpreted as monotheism, but that's not how the Hebrew reads)

and #3: Deuteronomy 6:4 New Living Translation (©2007) "Listen, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone. or English Standard Version (©2001) “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Again, check the Hebrew carefully and the context also. Who is the audience? We're just looking over Moses' shoulder.

852 posted on 10/10/2010 10:41:40 AM PDT by 1010RD (First Do No Harm)
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