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To: betty boop; YHAOS; Alamo-Girl; Diamond; xzins; TXnMA; shibumi; Texas Songwriter
And yet it is a fact that human beings have for millennia believed that humans have souls

That makes it a belief, not a fact. Just as I said. Just because you believe something doesn't mean it exists.

But your thinking does not determine reality — even though you might like it to.

Neither does yours. I do, however, differentiate my beliefs from facts.

Another fact: If you are right about the non-existence of souls, then some seven millennia of human history — experience, thought, artistic creations of all descriptions, etc., regarding this issue — is WRONG.

I did not say souls did not exist; I said that enosoulment is a postulate, not a fact. There is a huge difference.

You wrote: ...might prevails in all instances and for all times and in all things. If that were true, Hitler would still be in power

No, because Hitler was opposed by a greater might. The might of the Allies prevailed.

Truth is incalculably more powerful than might

Nonsense. The victors write the truth; their version of it.

It is also more powerful than opinion — doxa — including your opinion.

Then we are in the same boat, because it is more powerful than your opinion as well. And "doxa" means a lot more than just opinion. It actually means praise as in orthodoxa, the right praise, not the right opinion.  

All the collective might of the human race past, present, and presumably future, cannot eradicate the truth of the human soul. Only a fool would try.

The truth of the human soul is that it is a postulate. Show me a soul and then call it a fact. Just believing in Santa doesn't make Santa real, except in the minds of naive children—and apparently some childish adults.


633 posted on 09/05/2010 8:44:21 PM PDT by kosta50 (God is tired of repenting -- Jeremiah 15:6, KJV)
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To: kosta50; Alamo-Girl; YHAOS; dfwgator; Diamond; xzins; TXnMA; shibumi; Texas Songwriter; Quix
That makes it a belief, not a fact. Just as I said. Just because you believe something doesn't mean it exists.

It is a fact that the universal "default position" of the human race during the historical period (~7 millennia and counting) is belief in God (or the gods), and belief that human beings have souls. The evidence for this is overwhelming. For instance, among other things already pointed out in my last, funerary rites are a universal phenomenon among humans of all cultures. Even today.

What exact distinction do you draw between the existence of the soul and "ensoulment?" You say the latter is a "postulate." You wrote, "I did not say souls did not exist." Okay; does that mean you are prepared to say that they do exist? And if they do, does there not need to be a process of "ensoulment" of the body?

Is it simply that you dismiss soul as a fiction — because it cannot be directly observed? — and therefore rule out "ensoulment" in principle — one cannot instantiate a fiction??? Is this what you're driving at? If so, what's the point? Your view is completely anhistorical and counter to the evidence of human experience.

Why are you "right" about this, and all humanity that lived before you "wrong?" Are you Darwinist enough in your thinking to believe that human evolution means that man is "smarter" today than he was, say, back in the first millennium B.C.? And therefore, you must be "smarter" than, say, a Pythagoras, a Plato, an Aristotle? Because you are more evolved, and therefore more "fit?"

I wrote that if it were true might prevails in all instances and for all times and in all things, Hitler would still be in power. And you replied that Hitler was removed by greater might (i.e., the Allies), and therefore "might makes right."

But this obvious fact masks the point I was trying to make: The might of Hitler leveled an historically Christian nation, with an established Church no less, to a state of barbarism in just a couple of years. Does this mean that Hitler was "right," because he had the "might?"

You wrote: "The victors write the truth; their version of it." Jeepers, kosta — you cogitate like a commissar! You are straight out of the French Revolution.... LOL!

There is no such thing as a version of truth. There is only ONE Truth, for the universe is ONE. "Versions" of truth that depart from this one Truth would be false in principle. The falsity can be upheld only by force, by might. But this only further corrupts the world of human experience, of human society. So how can might be right?

You wrote:

And "doxa" means a lot more than just opinion. It actually means praise as in orthodoxa, the right praise, not the right opinion.

"Doxa" is the Greek root for the English word "doctrine." Orthodoxa means "right or correct doctrine." I'm unaware the Koine word doxa denotes "praise." Though I do recognize that Greek words can be pretty "compact symbols," carrying multiple cognate meanings. But to Plato, it's clear "doxa" meant "opinion," and usually false opinion. My own view follows Plato's.

"Doctrine" (doxa) is a formulation or codification of Truth seen — it is not the Truth itself. Because it is not, it can be false. But Truth never is false.

In any case, accepting your translation, there is never any "'right praise" for a lie.

Good grief, I gather from your last paragraph that you regard me as some kind of "childish adult" because I do not agree with you that the soul is a "postulate."

You want me to "show you a soul?" Why don't you try looking inward and see if you can find one there? :^)

639 posted on 09/06/2010 11:03:12 AM PDT by betty boop (Those who do not punish bad men are really wishing that good men be injured. — Pythagoras)
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