Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Bro,
I’m mildly curious about something that seems inconsistent to me . . . .
1. Those construed to be in purgatory per your system’s theology are A) BEST? or ONLY? able to be prayed out by folks still alive as mortals.
2. Sounds like somehow, in that case, those CLOSER TO THEM—BELIEVERS ALREADY RESIDING IN HEAVEN—that your system construes as powerful prayer intercessors—are NOT (A) effective? (B) allowed? (C) interested in bothering with such cases?
PRAISE GOD FOR THAT. I sure can’t save nor even improve myself. It’a usually a major challenge merely to cooperate!
Oh no. Anyone can pray for the “poor souls.” I SEEM vaguely to recall some prayers in which we ask Mary to pray for them.
Just FYI, a muttered “May the souls of the faithful departed through the mercies of Christ rest in peace,” at the end of grace or of bedtime prayers counts as a prayer for the “poor souls”.
THX THX.
Just because you execrate Mary and the Pope doesn't mean it is Scriptural, right, or something catholics should share with you.
Thank you both for your insights, dear brothers in Christ!
Can you pray to those IN purgatory, to have them pray for someone else in purgatory?
WHAT do Catholics have to do, to get to Heaven?
I forget. My totally off the wall guess is that they have enough on their plate. IF I get time, I’ll snoop around.
In any event, this is the kind of thing that amounts to “pious opinion.” I’d be astonished if anyone ever said about that, “Here’s the way it is, gang.”
No one said you are working your way to heaven. No one said you were puffed up. I just asked you to show me the where gospel is plainly stated in the Bible. You haven't done that. Perhaps you don't know.
"Hint: the gospel of your salvation does not reside where you appear to think it does. You find it. It should be cake walk to someone who is counting on IT plus their own righteousness for salvation."
The gospel is plainly stated in the Bible. I already know where it is and no one is counting on their own righteousness for salvation. You do love your strawmen but, at this point, you have been reduced to parroting what you are told because you do not know the Scriptures. Hint: the gospel verses don't support your position.
You mean to tell me you don't know the concept of 'remez'?
Does that come from not knowing the difference between the branch and the vine?
Do you mean to tell me that there are different gospels?
"This one???"
Do you mean to tell me that you don't know the difference between a reference to the gospel and the gospel plainly stated?
Q. "What must I do to be saved?"
A. Sit down and shaddup.
Be in line when they're handing the grace out?
It is "ordinary" that someone who is moved by the Spirit will seek to be baptized. But starting with those martyred before they get a chance to be baptized (Baptism of blood, so-called) to the person who gets hit by a train on the way to his baptism (Baptism of desire) there are LOTS of hedges.
We can imagine God 'saving' someone whose culture and edumication led him to think Baptism wasn't important. And it's that kind of thinking that, IMHO, leads us to the "plene esse" or "fullness" kind of language.
GOd does not need sacraments to save people. But we'd say He prefers them, and that to have access to them makes certain graces certainly available.
Here's a 'practice' and a comment that may give some of the flavor:
If someone already baptized validly wants to become a Catholic, part of the preparation will involve confession. However, if someone NOT baptized wants in, of course he's going to be Baptized, and Baptism conveys forgiveness of all sin. So no confession is required. That's the practice part.
But we "contemplate" someone who, by grace, has such a complete repentance both in the sense of having r"emorse, etc. for past sins and in the sense of turning whole-heartedly to God, that his sins would be forgiven without Baptism.
However if that person wanted to be Catholic he would still need to be Baptized. There are other graces, after all, and only God can assess an internal conversion well enough to know someone had been forgiven.
And, finally, a question I've gotten two answers for is whether baptism pays the "Temporal penalty of sin" the stuff that gets dealt with in purgation. as I say, I've heard it both ways.
But remember, the "temporal penalty" is not about restoring the right relationship with God. That's taken care of. It's about (a) Those aspects of me that still like some sins and tend towards them, AND fail to love the relevant virtues enough and (b) in SOME, hard for me to get, sense, something owed to justice.
The example is if you break my window. I can say, Hey, forget about it, it's okay. So we're good. But you still might need, for justice's sake, to pay for the replacement AND to understand and 'fix, to the extent it lies with you, the carelessness of impulsivity or whatever led to your breaking my window.
WE're okay in any event.
I hope that is clear if not persuasive. (I didn't mean to persuade, only to convey.)
THANKS FOR YOUR GOOD EXPLANATION.
Follow your statements, dude. Your posts are as variable as the weather forecast. Of course you have to consent to your salvation. You also must, as St. Paul says in:,p. Romans 2: 5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 3 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. 9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
St. Paul not enough for you? Let us try:
Matthew 25: 31 14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
44 18 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Care to argue with Jesus and Paul, both?
Not THAT is the will of the Father that is referred to in your proof verse of Mat. 7:21...
Are you possibly arguing that Matthew 7:21 is other than what it says? Your John 6:40 quote says And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
May have. This is required. Yet there is more required.
Now which group do you identify with and what group do I identify with???
Given your posts, I'd say that you identify with Nicolaus. I identify with the Church. I have no evidence of you practicing the Phyrgian heresy; that is more Pentecostalism.
Negative. It is strictly Biblical. It is the Reformation that threw open the doors of possibility for violating Matthew 7:21.
Don't you see, Mark. It's not even the believer that is living his life before God.
Could you explain what you mean here?
"I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, but CHRIST LIVETH IN ME; and the LIFE WHICH I NOW LIVE in the flesh, I live BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." (Gal. 2:20).
From the moment of salvation until the day of Jesus Christ that good work that was begun in me by God will continue in me, by God. It's the HE that began it and it's the HE that performs it until the day of Jesus Christ. Not me. He.
Notice the difference of your statement from Paul's. Paul is stating that he lives by Christ as in his own volition. You are stating that God uses you like a robot slave. We in the Church rejected that idea nearly 2000 years ago.
This is a repeated claim of yours. Also, you have provided no proof whatsoever. It's about time you did so don't you think?
I posted a picture of his house - a huge five storey mansion of a building that was a former monastery. He received it as a present. He also had farmland and either sharecroppers or tenant farmers that reported to him. If he squandered his wealth during his life - and there is no way that such an enterprise could not generate wealth especially when supplemented by his salaries from full University lecturer and church pastor.
Fact: Martin Luther had powerful protectors. Without those protectors it is likely he'd have been burned and his bones hung on the door at Wittenburg.
Likely? Can you name them?
Fact: Martin Luther left no wealth upon his death.
Not the fault of his circumstances. Landed gentry - with no debts upon assumption of his estates, plus salaries from a great University plus his salary from his church. That put him in the upper 5%, if not the upper 2%. Read your stated Wiki link for confirmation of some of these details.
Pope Paul III Kinda chubby too.
The Popes of the time brought the Reformation down upon the Church. I trust that they have been eternally rewarded in suitable fashion.
You must be talking about the OPC dogs and cats that go to heaven along with their masters and mistresses. Are you hoping to tag along in like fashion?
You must be talking about the OPC dogs and cats that go to heaven along with their masters and mistresses. Are you hoping to tag along in like fashion?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.