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To: sirchtruth
Alright, so what the Rabbi is saying is God was referring to angels? I've heard this before. I don't buy it. And the reason is because I believe Jesus is who he say he is.

Angels and heavenly court. Yeah, it is difficult to "buy it" when a person is a trinitarian. There are so many verses that contradict the trinitarian view, people hold on to that one to the bitter end...:o)

However, I do understand Hebrew uses things differently and I know this to be the case. The language is really ultra intriguing.

Yes! In addition to reading right-to-left and having no vowels, the Hebrew langauge is constructed from a relatively few number of root words. It is an efficient langauge. The root words are interesting when a person is parsing text because you can sometimes get hints of deeper meanings by analyzing root meanings. If that makes sense...

I think the OT points directly to Jesus. I mean it's designed too.

Well of course you do, the way Jesus is painted into the scriptures, it would make any reasonable person think it is talking about him. Problem is...it isnt! For example:

OT- The seed of a woman...supposed to be Jesus vs Satan. It isnt.

OT-The virgin birth-...supposed to foretell Mary giving birth to Jesus.....It isnt.

OT-For unto us a child is born....supposed to be Jesus...It isnt, it is Hezekiah

OT-IS 53 the suffering servant...supposed to be Jesus...can't possibly be Jesus.

OT-Psalm 22 ....they pierced my hands and feet.....it doesnt say that in the Hebrew. Not even close

OT-Zech 12:10...they will look upon me who they have pierced...it doesnt say that in the Hebrew....plus this is a future event.

So when a person see these, in addition to the fact that G-d forbids human sacrifice, human vicarious atonement, doesnt require a blood sacrifice, says the law is forever, sacrifices are returning basically every major tenent of Christianty is overturned by the OT, not reinforced. A person just has to have the honesty to look at the Hebrew in it's correct context and translation, then the OT says nothing Christological.

There is a messiah ben Joseph who is thought to suffer on behalf of the Jewish people and die. But he doesn't die for the worlds sins.... Oh wow! I never heard that. When was he supposedly around?

Hasnt happened yet. Some believe he is the personage in Zech 12:10....again, Zech 12:10 doesnt say in Hebrew what the Christian bibles say. Much different. Here is a link.

Messiah ben Yosef

Oh, and then God himself provides the sacrifice on most likely the very same spot Jesus was crucified.

NO! Jesus was killed at golgotha, outside the city. Abraham offered up Issac on Mt Moriah, the exact spot of the Temple Alter.

Blood is required for the remission of sins, is it not?

NO! The book of Hebrews is misquoting Lev 17:10-11. If you read Lev 17:1-14, G-d is making abundantly clear, do not eat blood!....Dont eat it, dont cook with it, dont do anything with it other than sprinkle it on the alter or pour it out on the ground. Why? Because the life is in the blood. And blood is used in an atonement, under CERTAIN, circumstances. Mostly, UNintentional sins...in only less than tens cases or so, intentional sins.

The key thing is, Lev 17 does NOT say that blood is the ONLY way to remit sins (like it says in Hebrews)

Lev 5:11 'If, however, he cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, he is to bring as an offering for his sin a tenth of an ephah [a] of fine flour for a sin offering. He must not put oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering. 12 He is to bring it to the priest, who shall take a handful of it as a memorial portion and burn it on the altar on top of the offerings made to the LORD by fire. It is a sin offering. 13 In this way the priest will make atonement for him for any of these sins he has committed, and he will be forgiven.

G-d knows that there will be long periods without a temple and sacrifice

Hos 3 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

So the bible says in many places, for forgiveness of sins, we are to pray, repent, charity, fast.....all of these are means of forgiveness. No blood required.!

Thanks for the 5 name link....checking it now.

30 posted on 07/14/2010 9:02:13 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960
So the bible says in many places, for forgiveness of sins, we are to pray, repent, charity, fast.....all of these are means of forgiveness. No blood required!

It's not that I'm disagreeing with what you wrote, but there is blood sacrifice. One of the reasons you don't see me quoting too much scripture is not because I can't, it's because there is too much I could quote. Also, it's important to try to grasp the ideas with in the spirit of the text in total. (All the verse surrounding the topic) With that said, let me point this one out to you.

Leviticus 1:2-5, 2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. 3If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. 4And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. 5And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

And they did this for how many years in the temple? Even to the point of charlatan's trying to sell unblemished animals!

You and I both know animal sacrifice, or more succinctly, death was NECESSARY for remission of sin. Do you discard this? Yes, there were other things, but God gives CLEAR instructions to Moses of what was required.

In my mind if you cast this requirement away, you are not being honest with yourself, and it causes me to question whether or not you can, or want to see the whole plan God developed for mankind? It's one thing to not believe, it's another to deny the facts right in front of you. Blood sacrifice was most certainly required for the remission of sin as laid out in OT scripture. It only makes sense based on what God said in the past. Sin is death. (He doesn't take that back)

Going a little backwards here, even if you take Jesus out of the equation you still have to contend with all those prophecies. You still have to acknowledge God's direction and all the signs he's given. Think about this.

The supreme being says: If you do this you will die and be separated from me forever.

One of the few things God can NOT do is lie. So, he loves us enough to give us a way back to him without breaking his word. In the OT way, something HAD to fulfill the requirement for sin, so as to not make him a liar.

The bible is a message to mankind. It basically says, I'm God, I love you. I've set things up for you in a way, despite your evil hearts, which allows you to come back to me. Even if you take the NT out of the equation, as one of God's chosen, (Jewish) you are still searching for the redemptive end plan. You must acknowledge God's whole work, not just a couple of verses here or there which you might think cast aside other declarations by God. I'm only talking right now about what is in the OT.

In my view YOU are purposely avoiding half of the message by not relying on God's grace, but his law! Grace involves spirit. I challenge you search your heart and tell me if God hasn't provided GRACE. Almost all of scripture points to this...

Do you think the OT teaches these three things physically, as well as conceptual: (I'm not talking about the trinity)

The Mind - The Heart - The Spirit - The Soul?

LOL! I must have finish writing this whole thing an hour ago, but keep going back and adding things...;->

Thanks for your links.

31 posted on 07/15/2010 7:27:15 AM PDT by sirchtruth (Freedom is not free)
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