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Amid Church Abuse Scandal, an Office That Failed to Act (Ratzinger)
NYT ^ | July 1, 2010 | LAURIE GOODSTEIN and DAVID M. HALBFINGER

Posted on 07/02/2010 4:21:11 AM PDT by TSgt

In its long struggle to grapple with sexual abuse, the Vatican often cites as a major turning point the decision in 2001 to give the office led by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger the authority to cut through a morass of bureaucracy and handle abuse cases directly.

The decision, in an apostolic letter from Pope John Paul II, earned Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, a reputation as the Vatican insider who most clearly recognized the threat the spreading sexual abuse scandals posed to the Roman Catholic Church.

But church documents and interviews with canon lawyers and bishops cast that 2001 decision and the future pope’s track record in a new and less flattering light.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: benedict; pope; ratzinger
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To: RobbyS; Dr. Eckleburg
Or to take to the road liked St. Paul did and risk everything in order to bring the Gospel to the World.

What planet are you on? Evangelical missionaries do it constantly

161 posted on 07/03/2010 1:27:18 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (everything that deceives, also enchants: Plato)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thanks for the tip.


162 posted on 07/03/2010 1:40:59 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: RobbyS; TSgt; RnMomof7; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; the_conscience; ...
Looking at matters objectively, the Vatican is not much more extensive than the holdings of the First Baptist Church in down town Dallas.

That is objectively a ludicrous statement.

You have a bourgeois prejudice against the Renaissance decor and trappings on display at the Vatican.

ROTFLOL. Thank you, God, for giving me a "bourgeois prejudice" against the sickening opulence enjoyed by the false bishop of Rome and his toadies. lol. If that is supposed to be a slander, all I can say is "More, please." (And my personal preference in decor runs more toward 18th century English antiques, lots of mahogany, Sheraton sideboards, pewter, Minton china, Thistle crystal and tartans everywhere. If that's "bourgeois," so be it.)

But I will agree to let the clergy there to make a bondfire of them said garments if all the preachers at the First Baptist Church agree to imitate St. Francis and strip naked in front of their congregation, and walk out naked onto the streets and join the homeless sleeping—voluntarily under I-45. and depend on panhandlng for their daily bread.

Why do Roman Catholics always think in terms of bonfires?

Who looks more laden down with the gaudy trinkets of wealth, excess and hubris? This guy...?

Or this guy...

wearing this...


163 posted on 07/03/2010 1:52:59 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

As I said, I would be much more impressed if your guy looked more like a homeless person and less than like the head of a law firm. After all, you ARE talking about apostolic poverty, are we not? BTW, the pope does not own the stuff he is wearing. Probably in terms of personal worth, Joe Ratzinger is worth much less than your guy. Lots of books and a grand piano. He is not even an art collector. Doesn’t have a wife and kids to support.


164 posted on 07/03/2010 2:05:19 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: small voice in the wilderness

I think I just cracked a rib.............lol!


165 posted on 07/03/2010 2:09:03 PM PDT by bonfire (ou)
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To: RobbyS
As I said, I would be much more impressed if your guy looked more like a homeless person and less than like the head of a law firm.

That is so typical of Rome. Rome tells the rest of the world to do as it says, but not as it does. What hypocrites.

The early church elders who led the beginnings of the Christian church dressed exactly like the congregation. These days, that means a suit and tie.

Not crowns and jewels and ermine and scarlet velvet and Prada shoes.

166 posted on 07/03/2010 2:44:09 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: RobbyS
He is not even an art collector.

lol. If that's the best thing you can say about Ratzinger's vow of poverty, that he's not even an art collector, well, you've just proven my point.

167 posted on 07/03/2010 2:45:37 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: vladimir998

The only interest that the NY Slimes has in the church is attacking it.


168 posted on 07/03/2010 2:50:27 PM PDT by KC_Conspirator
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I doubt you can come up with a vow of poverty for your guy, but maybe you can persuade him to furnish us all a copy of his income tax return. Joint income, I suppose. Problem here is that you are so taken with the Renaissance/Baroque splendor of the pope’s surroundings, you forget that probably most of the 70,000 millionaires in the DFW area enjoy more material comfort than all but a few of the Churchmen in the Vatican. Of course, those Church usually don’t
have wives and Children and extended families to support as many did in the 16th Century and as these millionaires do now.


169 posted on 07/03/2010 3:25:45 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Ratzinger is a scholar and has not more interest in material stuff than your average college professor. He and Immanual Kant would have enjoyed each other’s company, I am sure, if Ratzinger could have been sent back in time totake a walk with the Philosopher on his regular rounds.


170 posted on 07/03/2010 3:30:42 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Well the answer to who is who in tinsel and gold is pretty obvious Dr. E.... By the way is that headpiece the Popes crown? I noted three rows of Gems etc. so these would have to have some meaning. Is it worn for special occassions because the dome headpiece itself is pretty eye popping in itself. Or does the Pope have several headpieces?

I suspect there is some meaning to the whole outfit perhaps I should just look it up. I know the Jewish have certain Priestly garb where every stone had meaning as well as every tassle.


171 posted on 07/03/2010 6:10:09 PM PDT by caww
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To: RobbyS; Dr. Eckleburg; TSgt; RnMomof7; Alex Murphy; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; ...
But I will agree to let the clergy there to make a bondfire of them said garments if all the preachers at the First Baptist Church agree to imitate St. Francis and strip naked in front of their congregation, and walk out naked onto the streets and join the homeless sleeping—voluntarily under I-45. and depend on panhandlng for their daily bread. Or to put the matter another way, imitate Our Lord who pretty much did the same thing.

So Jesus was a panhandler? A beggar?

I can't recall any verses in the Bible where Jesus stood on the corner begging. He relieved a lot of beggars of their livelihoods by healing them and making them productive members of society, but I don't recall Jesus standing on the street corner with his hand out begging for assistance.

172 posted on 07/03/2010 7:08:47 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: RobbyS

173 posted on 07/03/2010 7:09:03 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: RobbyS

174 posted on 07/03/2010 7:12:14 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: caww
"I suspect there is some meaning to the whole outfit perhaps I should just look it up."

Art takes many forms and represents the highest levels of inspiration, achievement, and reverence of both the artists and recipients.

Art consists of all works produced in an attempt to illustrate, supplement and portray in tangible form the teachings of the Catholic Church. This includes sculpture, painting, poetry and prose, mosaics, metalwork, embroidery, architecture and even music. Catholic art has played a leading role in the history and development of Western Art since at least the fourth century.

That being said you will not find a non-Catholic denomination that does not have its own art and who have not pinched Catholic art, especially music, in their lives, worship and liturgy.

I believe it is simple envy of the beauty and the commercial value of the art freely given to the Catholic Church and accumulated over a thousand years longer than the existence of the break away sects that makes the anti-Catholics so covetous.

175 posted on 07/03/2010 9:09:16 PM PDT by Natural Law (Catholiphobia is a mental illness.)
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To: Natural Law

It is said “art is in the eye of the beholder”....catholic art is far to cumbersome and busy for my taste overall. It has so often a gothic look to me...and the people portrayed with elonginated or distorted faces. But I would agree it does oftentimes reflect catholic history despite the distortions. It also refelects that of the dark ages as well.

I can see you appreciate art and likely artists equally as much. I have met people who speak as you do in your post who have a passion for the older works. My interests for many years were antiques of a primitive style.....dry sinks, curley maple and tigerwood maple dressers and the like, canopy beds etc. Which is how my home was adorned. Paintings were more in line with that era as well and a patriotic theme such as the constitution distressed and framed....old silverware framed in a shadow box. So you see the art of the catholic era was not my style.

Glad you have found your passion though...your post certainly reflects your love of art.


176 posted on 07/03/2010 9:43:45 PM PDT by caww
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To: P-Marlowe
Our Lord was an itinerant preacher who spent years moving about the country, depending materially on the support of his hearers and followers. You are offended by the term panhandler, but you will note that when he sent the disciples away, he commanded them to depend on the generosity of others. St, Francis did much the same thing, and so did many itinerant Methodist preachers. Mother Theresa when she left the security of her convent likewise became entirely dependent on such generosity.

Those who dislike the elaborate cermonies at the Vatican pretend to a smugness that is not becoming. But the pastor of a large church like the First Baptist Church in Dallas assumes an office that outs great wealth and power at his disposal and I doubt Dr. Criswell or any of his successors has ever lacked any other creature comforts available to the pope, except personal residence in ancient palaces. A future pope was for a time a follower of St. Francis, and he sadly concluded that --like it or not-- the rule of St. Francis could not be applied to the whole world evenif the true Christian must strive for the same simplicity that mark Francis and which drew men to him as a magnet draws ironfilings.

As for the president pope, he has something in mind when he resorts to the use of vestments not used by the pope since the time of John XXIII. One can make an idol of poverty--as many radical politicians do. To pretend to a poverty of spirit that one does not have. Many priests of my church--and yours-- pretend to serve the poor when thy really want power over them. the pope is trying now to strip many such men of the power they have acquire din the Church, and believe it or not, such men would turn the Vatican into no more than a museum and pretend to devote themselves to the poor when they really have something else in mind.

177 posted on 07/03/2010 9:46:59 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: caww
"I can see you appreciate art and likely artists equally as much."

I can also appreciate how it can be an acquired taste like fine wine, great scotch, and jazz (although I still haven't learned to appreciate jazz). However, once you understand that the early artists were not trying to produce a photograph, but were using size, spacing, location, gender, age, and color to express more than the simple reproduction of images the works permit the artist to speak to you across eons and they reveal their inner and most sincere thoughts. I find it hard to understand the crass financial appraisal that the ignorant and the haters see when discussing Church art. Perhaps it is because their version of Christianity is without beatitude and beauty (yes, there is a connection between those words).

178 posted on 07/03/2010 9:58:16 PM PDT by Natural Law (Catholiphobia is a mental illness.)
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To: RobbyS
You are offended by the term panhandler, but you will note that when he sent the disciples away, he commanded them to depend on the generosity of others.

I don't think you will find an example of either Jesus or the Apostles begging anyone for money. God provided. A panhandler is someone who holds a pan in their hand begging money from productive citizens. Jesus may have lived off donations from followers, but I don't think he ever begged or complained that he needed anything. And when the disciples were sent out without any means of support, Jesus knew that they would be provided for. They did not need to beg. God provided.

179 posted on 07/03/2010 10:10:25 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Natural Law
I find it hard to understand the crass financial appraisal that the ignorant and the haters see when discussing Church art. Perhaps it is because their version of Christianity is without beatitude and beauty

But you must try and understand it isn't just the art itself...it's your history so understandable why the great meaning to you. The reformation changed much of the art work and from that period on I can much better appreciate the works...perhaps others as well. For myself, Natural law, I prefer a more simple taste in art...less glitz and glamor...and the same for the place which I choose to worship.

My field of work once took me to dressing some very influential people....some who like to wear their whole jewelry box, but as any fashion expert knows simple and tasteful works best. And that rather denotes many who might appretiate better the catholic art if they didn't wear so much of it nor hang up so much of it......but again..."it is in the eye of the beholder".

180 posted on 07/03/2010 10:12:46 PM PDT by caww
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