Posted on 06/27/2010 3:10:25 AM PDT by GonzoII
Scenario:
You're discussing religion with an Evangelical friend. For 20 minutes you've responded as best you can to her pointed arguments against Catholic doctrines like Mary's perpetual virginity, praying to saints, venerating statues, and purgatory. She's unconvinced. You're frustrated. It doesn't look like there's much of a chance you'll agree on anything.
Then comes the jackpot question. "Look," she says earnestly, "we can disagree about many things, but what's most important is that we know we can be saved by Jesus Christ. Tell me, if you were to die tonight, do you know for sure if you'd go to heaven?"
This is the "all-important" question for Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants. Although your friend is completely sincere in asking this question (as she's been coached to do by her pastor and the anti-Catholic radio preacher she listens to in the afternoon), you realize that if you don't answer correctly, you'll walk into a sort of theological ambush.
If you respond that Christians can't, apart from a special revelation from God, have metaphysical or absolute certainty concerning their salvation, a completely biblical and theologically precise answer, your Evangelical friend will gleefully spring a "trap" on you, based on 1 John 5:13: "These things I write to you, that you may know you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God."
"See?" she smiles confidently. "The Bible disagrees with you!" She then proceeds to inform you that if you "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. 10:9-10).
(Excerpt) Read more at envoymagazine.com ...
Sounds like You Can lose it.
REVELATION 3:15"I know your Deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to SPIT you out of my mouth."
Gee I think it looks like they have the HOLY SPIRIT
But still be be Spit out.
OUT Of CHRIST's MOUTH(Body Of Christ)
Which means the motivation for good works is focused on yourself ... to make sure you get there. Assurance of salvation allows the good works to be done in gratitude for what Christ HAS DONE for us ... not what we HOPE he will do if we have enough of them.
But Paul does not sanction disobedience either.
This is the typical OSAS and Calvinistic means of reconciling the requirement that saving faith must have “things which accompany salvation” to be considered saving faith, while in contrast, many today hold to the specious doctrine that as long as one believes Jesus promise to give eternal life than he/she is saved.
However, the classic approach must construe warnings given to believers against rejecting their faith, and making Christ “of none effect,” and profiting them nothing, (Gal. 5:1-14) and becoming adversaries of God,(Heb. 10:27-31) to being only applicable to unbelievers, but which restriction the texts will not allow, as it was beleivers who were being specifically addressed.
There is also the additional reality that Paul also had assurance that some souls were part of the elect, based upon their tested faith, (1Thes. 1:4ff) yet there are souls even today who have manifested “works meet for repentance,” and a good degree of tested faith and virtue, only to latter die in adulterous relationships or the like.
Thus i find it more warranted that just as a soul makes a decision to believe, being enabled and persuaded by the grace of God, and which results in imputed righteousness, they also can choose to will-fully rebel or otherwise recant in times of testing, and forfeit that which faith procures, or at least they are warned against doing so, which clearly infers they could.
Yet we are also given assurance that by continued growth in grace, we may “make our calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.” (2Pet. 1:10) To God be the glory, though i certain do not feel close to having that condition.
James 2 is speaking of SHOWING your faith by works, it doesn't say a word about anyone being saved by works.
So what part of 'not of works' don't you understand in Eph.2:9?
You will note that Rev.3:11 mentions loss of crowns, not salvation.(1Cor.3:14-15) 'Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward' (2Jn.8)
Rev.3:15 is speaking to a church, not individuals.
'For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, or things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creture shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord' (Rom.8:38-39)
All you guys who claim that you can lose your salvation after you have been saved, must think you deserve to go to heaven because you are sinless.
Notice that St. John includes himself in this category by using the word "we." Ask what would happen if she did not confess her sins. What would happen if she confessed with her mouth but wasn't truly repentant? Would God forgive her anyway? If she says yes, she contradicts the biblical passages that say unrepented sin will not be forgiven and nothing sinful or unclean can enter into heaven (cf. Hab. 1:13; Rev. 21:8- 9, 27).
HE is talking to Christians.
"If we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing" (1 John 1:8-9).
Notice "IF" and If we do not he is not faithful to Forgive otherwise why use the word "If".
It's a state of Grace. It's Gift(Free) which has to be maintained like anything given to you to keep.
You ask for help till the hour of your death
Because you could die as you go to do daily things.
Look this all started with a guy who took books out of the bible. Also wanted take out the Book Of James and Revelation
Thats a mad man.
Notice that St. John includes himself in this category by using the word "we." Ask what would happen if she did not confess her sins. What would happen if she confessed with her mouth but wasn't truly repentant? Would God forgive her anyway? If she says yes, she contradicts the biblical passages that say unrepented sin will not be forgiven and nothing sinful or unclean can enter into heaven (cf. Hab. 1:13; Rev. 21:8- 9, 27).
HE is talking to Christians.
"If we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing" (1 John 1:8-9).
Notice "IF" and If we do not he is not faithful to Forgive otherwise why use the word "If".
It's a state of Grace. It's Gift(Free) which has to be maintained like anything given to you to keep.
You ask for help till the hour of your death
Because you could die as you go to do daily things.
Look this all started with a guy who took books out of the bible. Also wanted take out the Book Of James and Revelation
Thats a mad man.
The Lord’s plan of salvation is that we are reconciled to Him by Him through Christ, we are a new creation(2 Corinthians 5, Colossians 2, 3)
He does not require super or special knowledge of us. His Spirit indwells us and *He* keeps that which we “have committed unto Him against that day.”
Philippians 1:6 "I am sure of this, that He who started a good work (salvation) in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." I accepted God's free gift of salvation and His promise to me is that He will keep me, not that I will keep myself. I choose to believe that God "cannot lie." If you've been born again, you will discover this truth in time. I spent ten years in the Pentecostal movement and left due to the false teaching of one being able to lose their salvation. The Holy Spirit and God's Word has made that abundantly clear to me, of which I have no doubt. I am not a Calvinist. I do believe those who choose to be born again, are predestined to conformty to the image of Christ and nothing can deter the completion of the salvation process.It is God who keeps us, not ourselves.
1 John 5:18 "We know that everyone who has been born of God does not sin, but the One (Jesus) who is born of God "keeps him," and the evil one does not touch him."
It's a wonderful thing to be secure in Christ and truly experience that blessed "peace that passes all understanding." Hope you find it someday by resting in the Word of God.
I’m not Catholic. I was saved at 8 years old by the grace of God through Jesus Christ and will be saved for eternity by the same grace, not by my works of any kind.
Maybe you should read it again.
By the way, faith is a work. Belief is a work.
You are making the assumption that as soon as you admit even one "work" as necessary to salvation you are preaching that our works are the power that saves us. You are running from a straw man of your own construction.
The supernatural work of salvation that is the power that saves us was done on the cross by Jesus. When Paul says that salvation is not work works, this is what he is talking about. He was battling Judaizing teachers who were trying to put Christians on the same treadmill that did not even work under the old law. (The Pharisee who felt justified in his "righteousness" verses the tax collector was was justified because of his repentent heart.)
Maybe you should read Ephesians 2:10 -- God intended for us to do good works in His kingdom from the begining.
I’ve read the Bible, cover to cover, several times. I used to try to do it every year.
I see salvation as a “ticket” to Heaven. Believing in Christ earns you a ticket into heaven; but you can lose your ticket on the way to that wonderful destination through negligence, distraction, or stupidity. If you didn’t take good care of that ticket, safeguard it, protect it, and have now misplaced it, you don’t get in.
You have to live the life Christ wants you to live to keep hold of that ticket to Heaven. You can even get on the train, but when the time comes, you’d better be able to produce that ticket or you will be put off the train. It all boils down to actions. Christ demands we LIVE as He asked. Just saying you love Him is not enough; you’ve got to really live it.
And maybe you should read a dictionary and learn that the word justification has more than one meaning. The justificaiton spoken of in James is speaking of the legal sense,'a showing to be just or conformable to law' In the theological sense (Paul) it is the 'act of free grace by which God pardons a sinner and accepts him as righteous' (Webster 1828)
Now, what does the NAS, a RCC bible have to say about James 2. vs Paul.
'...Paul argues against those who claim to particpate in God's salvation because of their good deeds as well as because they have committed themselves to trust in God through Jesus Christ (Paul's concept of faith). The author of James is well aware that proper conduct can only come about with an authentic commitment to God in faith. (NAS fn).
By the way, faith is a work. Belief is a work.
Faith is not a work.
'But to him that WORKETH NOT, BUT BELIEVETH on him that justifeth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for righteousness (Rom.4:5)
You are making the assumption that as soon as you admit even one "work" as necessary to salvation you are preaching that our works are the power that saves us. You are running from a straw man of your own construction.
I am asking you what is the basis for your salvation.
You say that works are part of it.
If works have no power to save you, than they have nothing to do with your salvation.
It is your logic that is flawed.
You are denying the law of excluded middle, either works are needed for salvation or they aren't.
Which is it?
The supernatural work of salvation that is the power that saves us was done on the cross by Jesus. When Paul says that salvation is not work works, this is what he is talking about. He was battling Judaizing teachers who were trying to put Christians on the same treadmill that did not even work under the old law. (The Pharisee who felt justified in his "righteousness" verses the tax collector was was justified because of his repentent heart.)
So, works aren't necessary to salvation?
And the FN to the RCC NAS doesn't say that Paul was only speaking of the Jewish law, he states that Paul was speaking of good deeds.
Maybe you should read Ephesians 2:10 -- God intended for us to do good works in His kingdom from the begining.
Yes, those good works are a RESULT of being already saved, which is made clear in Eph.2:9, NOT OF WORKS.
So, are works are necessary for one's salvation or do the works SHOW that one is saved?
That is what Eph.2:10 is speaking about, a saved man, who performs good works because God is working through him.
None of those works contribute to that individual's salvation, they are a RESULT of it.
Regarding the Luke 18, it is you 'faith plus works' individuals who are the Pharisee's, standing around thinking you deserve heaven for what YOU are doing, instead of what Christ DID for you.
I am born again, and may God bless your faith, but my response is due to an honest desire to reconcile the Scriptures, which your response does not attempt.
Thank God for the promise of Philippians 1:6, and those like it, but just as numerous are those which warn that by not cooperating with God then the opposite will be the reality.
(Gal 4:9-11) “But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? {10} Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. {11} I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.”
(Gal 5:1-2) “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. {2} Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
(1 Th 3:5) “For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.”
(Heb 10:26-27) “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, {27} But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
Your rendering of 1Jn. 5:18 is not what the text says, but that “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”
The believer is kept by the power of God thru faith, but it is man’s choice to yield to God by believing, which itself is by God’s grace, then is necessary.
And if by invoking 1 John 3:9 you exclude all Christians who sin then i dare say no one can have peace, while if you hold that it refers to not engaging in willful practice of sin then it concurs with my position that a faith that rests on the Lord Jesus for salvation will be manifested by characteristic righteousness, and repentance when convicted of not doing so.
(1 John 1:8) “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
I have read it through once, working on number 2.
Salvation by faith does not mean that there is no human response taking place in being justified before God, but that man’s response does not merit one eternal life. God grants repentance, (Acts 11:8) and persuades the drowning sinner to lay hold of Christ, choosing light over darkness, and thus righteousness is imputed to that believers, because it is Jesus Christ the righteous who saves them by His blood, not because their works merit it.
Souls are not accounted to have truly merited eternal life because of their works done in God, contrary to what Trent claims, yet the faith that saves is one that is of a confessional quality, so that while death bed conversions can occur, such a soul would respond to Christ by being baptized, and following his Lord if he lived.
(Rom 10:9-10) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. {10} For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
In Acts 10, Cornelius and household were born again before anyone baptized him, and his confession was magnifying God.
It is the nature of man to presume their works and or the power of their church will save, and many churches promote this, partly by honoring anti-Christ souls like Ted Kennedy as believers, but salvation by Biblical faith debases man and exalts God, and the Biblical evangelists did not simply work to clarify that salvation is by grace, but by the Holy Ghost convicted man of his utterly destitute and damnable condition, and need for salvation by faith in the Lord Jesus and His blood, and it is in the light of God’s justice that man sees that need.
And as said before, the distinction between what actually saves is
There is a big difference in breaking fellowship with God and losing one’s salvation.
There is a big difference in breaking fellowship with God and losing one’s salvation. It’s the old man (carnal) nature that sins, not the new man created in righteousness and holiness that commits sin. The old man is dead, crucified with Christ. He just hasn’t accepted his death yet.
Your first sentence again fails to interact with the texts at issue, which are neither addressed to unbelievers nor simply warning of loss of fellowship.
As for the the flesh committing sin versus the new man, that is a distinction without a difference as concerns saving faith versus denying it. It is the heart where sin begins, (Mk. 7:21-23) and it is the error of certain gnostic antinomians to hold one may sin with his flesh without affecting his relationship with God. We are not to repent for having a sinful nature, but for yielding to it, and to wilfully live after the flesh, (Gal. 5:19-21) or to impenitently continue in a something which is manifestly sin and could repent from, (1Tim. 5:8) or to assent to a false gospel, (Gal. 5:1-4) is to deny the faith, and its benefits.
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