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To: kosta50
“Thank you. I was hoping you would address the referenced articles' claims, rather than simply make a Christian "deposition." You say "But Isa. 42:1-4; 49:1-6 show that the Servant in this group of passages cannot be Israel."

Isa. 42:1-4, “Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.”

This can’t be Israel since Israel is about to go into captivity and its cities and land devastated because of idolatry. Israel was a war-like nation, not a peaceable nation as this servant is described. From the time of the return from exile, Israel has never “brought forth judgment unto truth”. The isles of the earth to this day hunger after its demise.

Isa. 49:1-6, “ Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.”

The last verse would disqualify Israel from being the servant since it speaks of gathering Jacob again to Him. Israel is Jacob.

PRELIMINARY ISSUES

First is the issue of circular reasoning.The author himself engages in “circular reasoning” by assuming that the writer is referring to Israel as the “suffering servant”.

the most that could be said is this: Isaiah 53 is about someone who dies for the sins of others. People may have seen Jesus die, but did anyone see him die as an atonement for the sins of others?

Why would it make any difference whether someone recognized at the time Jesus died, he was dying for the sins of others? He told his disciples what he was going to do and at the time they did not believe him. After the resurrection, they understood and believed. The atoning transaction was between Jesus and God the Father. Israel went into captivity for its own sin; the sin of idolatry. There is no evidence anywhere where Israel atoned for the sins of others; in fact, because of its sin, Israel could not atone for another’s sin, only its own.

Second (and consistent with all Jewish teaching at the time), Jesus' own disciples didn't view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy.

That’s true, however Luke 24:44-47, “And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”

After their understanding was enlightened they understood the significance of the prophecy and taught it to their disciples: The deacon Philip interpreted this Isaiah 53 passage as referring to Jesus (Acts 8:32-35, "The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus").

The apostle Paul understood the prophecy referred to Jesus : Rom 10:13-16, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?”

Even Jesus didn't see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his messianic claims - why else did he call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in him before the alleged resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)?

Jesus understood the significance of the prophecy: Jhn 12:37-41, “But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.”

And why did he later request that God "remove this cup from me" (Mk. 14:36) - didn't he know that a "removal of the cup" would violate the gentile understanding of Isaiah 53?

Jesus was human. Heb. 5:7-8, “Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.”

The author does not finish the thought, “never the less, not my will but Thine be done.”

And third, even if we accept the gentile Christian interpretation of Isaiah 53, where is it indicated (either in Isaiah 53 or anywhere else in our Jewish Scriptures) that you must believe in this "Messiah" to get the benefits? I don’t understand his point.

This should answer the writer’s verse by verse interpretation.

339 posted on 06/17/2010 8:28:24 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
Thank you agian for your labor.

The last verse would disqualify Israel from being the servant since it speaks of gathering Jacob again to Him. Israel is Jacob

Here is what Jewish Bible says:

1. Hearken, you islands, to me, and listen closely, you nations, from afar; the Lord called me from the womb, from the innards of my mother He mentioned my name. א. 2. And He made my mouth like a sharp sword, He concealed me in the shadow of His hand; and He made me into a polished arrow, He hid me in His quiver. ב. 3. And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast." ג. 4. And I said, "I toiled in vain, I consumed my strength for nought and vanity." Yet surely my right is with the Lord, and my deed is with my God. ד. 5. And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb as a servant to Him, said to bring Jacob back to Him, and Israel shall be gathered to Him, and I will be honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God was my strength. ה. 6. And He said, "It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth."

It is clear that he is not speaking to Jacob but to someone else who is his servant, whom he calls Israel (verse 3).

Personally, I think Isaiah was in a "trance" like so many other biblical authors amdit, or positively insane, and people have bene trying for thousands of years to make sense of his inanity.

342 posted on 06/17/2010 10:29:20 AM PDT by kosta50 (The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
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To: blue-duncan

Nicely, done.


348 posted on 06/17/2010 12:18:09 PM PDT by bkaycee (Another Tremendous Article by William Webster. http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/justification)
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