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To: stfassisi
I don't think any true Christian, Catholic or not, would ever deny that the early church had certain traditions that were not specifically spelled out in Scripture. That they did not hold traditions in contradiction to scripture is what the point is. Irenaeus' quote I gave certainly spelled out specific PRIMARY Christian doctrine that he said even a barbarian - who couldn't read - would have illuminated to him through the Holy Spirit. These docrines are all from Scripture. His statement sounds a lot like what the Nicene Creed describes as well.

I don't see from your quote that he even spoke of infant baptism. He said:

"For He came to save all through means of Himself--all, I say, who through Him are born again to God--infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men."

Your church infers from this that he means water baptism because you believe that is how someone starts down the salvation path. I don't read it that way and find nothing in his statement that contradicts scripture. To say "infant water baptism" is scriptural is not true. Nowhere does the Bible say babies must be baptised in order to be saved, in fact, no scripture even says anyone MUST be water baptised to be saved. We are baptised in the Holy Spirit when we believe. Water baptism is an outward sign after this that a believer professes to be a follower of Christ and to rise up in newness of life. It is an outward sign of an inward condition, but the act itself does not save. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ's payment for our sins.

I appreciate any prayers I can get so please feel free to lift them up for me anytime you feel led. I do for you. :o)

2,345 posted on 06/30/2010 7:15:23 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
STF quoted Irenaues-"For He came to save all through means of Himself--all, I say, who through Him are born again to God--infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men."

BB said-I don't see from your quote that he even spoke of infant baptism.....Your church infers from this that he means water baptism because you believe that is how someone starts down the salvation path. I don't read it that way and find nothing in his statement that contradicts scripture. To say "infant water baptism" is scriptural is not true. Nowhere does the Bible say babies must be baptised in order to be saved, in fact, no scripture even says anyone MUST be water baptised to be saved

Here is clear evidence that Blessed Irenaues taught Infant Baptism by water

"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

So,you see the Church KNEW John 3:5 included infants and there is GREAT evidance of that because Saint Irenaues knew Saint Polycarp who was a direct Disciple of Saint John himself.Dear Sister ,when we approach Scripture, it is important to keep in mind what the intent of the writer was and how early Christians interpreted it. It was NEVER intended to be interpreted apart from the Church.

We see UNITED continuation of infant baptism from other ECF's and Church coucils as well

Examples...

"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" Hippolytus (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" Origin(Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

"You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

"Canon 2. Likewise it has been decided that whoever says that infants fresh from their mothers' wombs ought not to be baptized....let him be anathema." Council of Carthage,Canon 2,(A.D. 418

2,347 posted on 07/01/2010 6:00:46 AM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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